Travel Trends with Dan Christian
#1 B2B Travel Podcast. If you are looking to stay ahead in the travel industry, this new podcast hits all the highlights! The Travel Trends Podcast is where industry leaders converge to share & shape the future. Whether you're an emerging entrepreneur, a seasoned industry executive, or a dedicated travel professional, you’ll be able to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving landscape.
Uncover valuable insights, innovative strategies, and meaningful connections that will elevate your travel business or career to new heights.
Travel Trends with Dan Christian
How the Transformation Economy Is Redefining Tourism with Jake Haupert and Joe Pine
We’re thrilled to conclude our Season 5 In-Destination series with a truly thought-provoking conversation featuring Joe Pine and Jake Haupert - two visionaries shaping the future of travel.
The future of travel is undergoing a profound transformation - shifting from curated experiences to a deeper focus on personal growth and self-discovery. At the heart of this evolution lies the emerging Transformation Economy, a $208 billion market shift that is redefining what travelers value and how the industry delivers on those expectations. In this week's episode, Experience Economy pioneer Joe Pine and Transformational Travel Council co-founder Jake Haupert discuss why this movement is far more than a passing trend - it’s a reimagining of travel’s true purpose.
Transformational travel stands apart from traditional tourism. It’s not about fleeting moments or checking off bucket-list destinations. Instead, it’s a holistic journey that unfolds in three essential phases: intentional preparation, immersive experiences, and meaningful reflection. Without this complete arc, the potential for lasting change often fades once travelers return home.
Joe and Jake argue that transformation is the missing link between the ideals of sustainable tourism and real behavioral change. It’s a pathway to deeper connections - with ourselves, with others, and with the natural world.
For travel businesses, this shift demands more than surface-level adaptation - it requires a fundamental redefinition of their mission. Joe challenges providers to see themselves not merely as hosts or experience creators, but as facilitators of personal growth. Those who embrace this role will unlock greater value - not just for travelers, but for communities and their own organizations.
As we look to the future, travel has the potential to return to its most sacred role: a vehicle for human flourishing. In a world increasingly dominated by digital interaction, real journeys offer the space to slow down, reconnect, and grow. Transformation, not transaction, will define the next era of meaningful travel.
👉 Listen to How the Transformation Economy Is Redefining Tourism Now
🔥 Season 5 Title Sponsors: TravelAI, Stay22, Propellic, Flight Centre, Collette, Flywire, Traveltek and Protect Group
The #1 B2B Travel Podcast Globally. Over 100 Episodes. Listeners in 125 countries. New Episodes Every Weds. Season 6 launches in September.
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I'm always asking what next? You know, my personal purpose in life is to figure out what's going on in the world of business and then develop frameworks that first describe what's happening and then prescribe what companies can do about it. And so part of that is like what's next, what's next? And so part and parcel of that experience kind of is recognize that we only ever change through the experiences that we have. You know that we're all the product of our experiences, as the saying goes, so that experiences would naturally change us and that you can design experiences to actually change people, and people have aspirations that they want met, and so you eventually would get and now it's really hot on the heels of the experience. Economy is an economy where people buy based on what effect is it going to have on me, what is the impact? As well as on the greater world in which I live.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host, dan Christian, and today we have our final installment of our three-part series focused on the world of in-destination experiences brought to us by our friends over at Pernod Ricard. We started this series speaking to Christian Latchell from BRC Imagination Arts, then we had Laura Cilio-Pavat join us from Pernod Ricard, and today we have two more extraordinary guests for you. We have the best-selling author of the Experience Economy, joe Pine, and the co-founder of the Transformational Travel Council, jake Halpert. So it's a perfect way to cap off this series, which we are going to bring back for season six, which kicks off in September. We only have one more episode left of season five and then we're actually going to introduce a series of spotlight episodes over the course of July and August before we come back in September. Now, just before we bring on these two extraordinary guests, I just wanted to acknowledge the team at Pernod Ricard one more time, just so all of our global listeners actually understand who they are and what they do and why you should care, especially going into summer 2025, because hopefully you can include one of their brand homes on your travels this summer.
Speaker 2:Pernod Ricard truly believed the future of travel is experiential. It's not just about where you go. It's about what you love and who you meet along the way. Imagine uncovering the heritage of your favorite spirits, exploring iconic cellars and distilleries and walking in the footsteps of the founders and the artisans who shaped these legendary brands. From exclusive tastings to behind-the-scenes moments, these immersive journeys turn products into stories and visitors into lifelong brand ambassadors. With more than 35 destinations across four continents, pernod Ricard's brand homes have already welcomed over 1.3 million travelers, creating meaningful experiences that connect people to the craft, the place and the story behind every sip. So, whether you're a connoisseur or simply curious, take the time this summer to discover the magic of spirits tourism with Pernod Ricard's brand homes, where passion meets place and every visit is an unforgettable journey. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2:This episode is brought to you in part by our friends at Stay 22, the monetization solution built for travel creators and publishers. Stay 22 helps you unlock hidden revenue with tools that let your readers book hotels, activities and more right from your content. No pop-ups, no extra work, just smart, passive income that runs in the background so you can focus on creating. Are you ready to make every click count? Then head to stay22.com. Slash travel trends and start earning more from your travel content without the ad clutter that's stay22.com slash travel trends.
Speaker 2:Our longtime listeners will be very familiar with travelaicom, one of our sponsors, from the very beginning. They've sponsored the last two seasons and also our AI summit. You might actually remember they were recently featured in season four. The two co-founders, john Liotier and Chris Jensen, live from Focusrite, where they shared how their innovative use of AI is reshaping the travel industry. If you missed it, we highly recommend going back to hear their inspiring story of building one of the fastest growing, profitable AI companies in travel. Entirely bootstrapped Travel AI is revolutionizing the industry by blending AI powered efficiency with personalized human centered travel experiences, from micro-segmentation to tailored travel solutions. Their mission is to enhance every traveler's journey while setting the pace for travel's future. Here's how you can join the exciting mission. If you or someone you know in tech or AI is looking for a new career that combines innovation and impact, then head to TravelAIcom or follow them on LinkedIn to explore more opportunities. They are growing fast. Thanks again for your continued support.
Speaker 2:And now back to the show. Now let's prepare to welcome in our two truly exceptional guests for this special finale episode of the In Destination Experiences of season 5 of Travel Trends. I'm so excited that we are at the point where we can have such exceptional guests like Joe and Jake joining us, and I'm so excited about Season 6 and where we're headed with Travel Trends, based on today's conversation, and you'll hear from Jake, who is one of the most highly respected figures in the world of transformational tourism. He's an amazing speaker, he teaches and he really guides companies on how they can expand and implement these strategies on a global level. His whole background is in travel and tourism and specifically the issues that threaten tourism's ability to be additive rather than extractive in our lives and society, and this really is a paradigm shift that is necessary to make so that travel can be healthier, more fair, just, compassionate and impactful. And Jake is committed to doing something about it, and that's why he is shepherding the Travel Transformational Council. He is the chair of this institute, and they have members and program alumni all over the world that are powering this ecosystem of conscious travel through professionals, leaders, guides, the media and influencers, and you can then see why he and Joe Pine work so incredibly well together.
Speaker 2:So Joe Pine, who, to many of our listeners, needs no introduction, since he's inspired so many of you to be in this industry, including myself. But for those of you who are just coming to know who Mr Pine actually is, he is an internationally acclaimed author, also a very highly sought after speaker. He works as a management advisor to various Fortune 500 companies as well as startups. He's the co-founder of Strategic Horizons, which is a thinking studio dedicated to helping businesses conceive and design new ways of adding value to their economic offerings. You'll actually hear Joe in today's conversation talk about the reason that businesses actually exist, and I really want you to hear it from himself, because he has this background in mathematics and business and he somehow manages to weave together the art so successfully and make his books and his teachings so accessible to millions of people around the world.
Speaker 2:Joe's groundbreaking book, the Experience Economy, was published way back in 1999 but has become one of the top 100 business books of all time and I know it's inspired many of our listeners. And he is about to publish his next major work, which is the transformation economy, which comes out later this year or early into 2026, depending where you are in the world. But I'm sure many of our listeners will be pre ordering a copy because he will be guiding us on the journey of where travel and tourism is headed with his major new work, and I cannot wait for him to share that with you now, as well as the background on the experience, economy and how he works with Jake and the Transformational Travel Institute. So, welcome Jake, welcome Joe. So great to have you on Travel Trends. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 3:It's a pleasure. Thanks, dan, really excited to be here.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and I think everyone got a good idea from that introduction just how important both of you are to the travel industry and certainly even to my decisions in life.
Speaker 2:I mean, joe's book was a seminal work 1999, that I graduated that year and actually it was a big reason why I decided to go into the travel industry and the experience economy. So it's a phenomenal journey to finally be at a point where I have the privilege to have the Travel Trends podcast, be in season five and have the privilege to speak to Joe and Jake and you guys. Just so you know, you've already inspired me for season six, which will launch in September, and the theme is going to be captains of industry and the people like yourselves that are really shaping the future of travel. And so many people who have been on our podcast more than 100 plus episodes have been inspired by you both, and particularly Joe, even thinking of people like Bruce Rosard from Arrival many people you know in this industry. They're in this industry because of you or they've been inspired to advance their careers by the learning from your excellent work. So again, a sincere thank you to me for joining us.
Speaker 1:It's very gratifying to hear. Thank you, dan, I appreciate it.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. I'm pleased to hear that, joe, and let's start, since the focus is the transformation economy, which is both the work Jake has been doing for many years with TTC and also the name of Joe's new book coming out. But let's talk about the Transformation Tourism Council and what brought you to actually create this in the first place, jake.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, happy to. I, you know I wish we had more time because it's a long story, but you know I can. I was running my first company back in and that I started in 06. And we were showcasing national parks around the western US, you know, and I was, I was guiding at the time. So spending a lot of time trying to connect people to nature, connect people with each other, really give these immersive experiences, you know, and I started recognizing that maybe travel had lost a little bit of its power, you know, and that people were traveling for maybe the wrong reasons and, you know, coming in with a sense of entitlement or expectation you expectation, and I really felt like there was an opportunity to bring travel back to its roots, make it more impactful, more ethical, and so that really opened up the door for me in terms of, like, what's possible with travel and tourism If we're able to open our eyes and maybe look at it with fresh eyes and with new energy and new enthusiasm.
Speaker 2:And now you started this 10 years ago and you've also just launched the 2025 Transformational Travel State of the Industry Report, which I have a number of questions on. It's an excellent overview of where the industry is today. It's worth everyone reading all 20 pages and applying it to their businesses. But yeah, tell us a little bit about your journey over that past 10 years. I know there's obviously a lot of different milestones you've accomplished, but tell us a little bit more about the journey you've been on and some of the big accomplishments you've made that you know bring you to this point.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I, you know, kind of building off of the, the, the, the story I just told in terms of you know why I got into this. You know, I set out on a adventure with some friends that would like to go backpacking, and went to Kilimanjaro and we decided, I decided that I was going to start playing around with, you know, some of these ideas I was having around how to create transformations, you know, for being more intentional, being more present, having more meaningful conversations, you know, driving toward outcomes, you know. And thinking bigger, you know. And so that that experience, you know, with Kilimanjaro, was so deeply moving for us, because we're able to bring a little bit more intentionality to it, that it really charted the course for me, you know, to get into this work. And, as you know, once you get in, you know, on your path per se, you end up finding other people on the path right, and so I was surrounding myself with great people like Michael Bennett and Kurt Katai, and we gave a presentation at the Adventure Travel World Summit 2016. And it resonated, you know.
Speaker 3:People were like, oh yes, this, this, this has potential, this, this could be the future of travel, and we're just really striking a chord, you know. So we're like, well, we should do something about this, and so we decided that we're going to try to create an organization, a school and a consultancy that really unlock travel's potential with new frameworks, techniques and tactics. But it's been a hard journey, for sure, pushing the boulder up the hill, trying to get the industry to change. Lots of positive energy, lots of rah, rah, rah, but in terms of, like, real adoption, you know, and getting people to shift how they design and deliver travel has been a challenge. But the pandemic certainly opened things up. It accelerated this, you know. People came out of that, you know, with a little bit more desire for meaning and purpose and connection, you know, and travel has always been such a place that we seek this out, you know.
Speaker 2:So then that really started to open up the opportunity for us and, you know, with Joe's work in the transformation economy, yeah, and so just on that, I think that's one of the things that I really want to dive into is this concept of transformation and exactly what it means and how it's being realized today with businesses in the marketplace. Because I think the concept of the experience economy instantly people get that, because the idea that we have moved from this idea of goods and services to actually defining, as, Joe, you highlighted, economists never really had a measure of what was the experience economy before until your landmark work that kind of shaped an entire new view of even how businesses like Apple and Starbucks and Disney they were really succeeding by creating experiences for their customers, and so all of these businesses have been inspired by that work, understand the importance of experiences. And the final episode in our season is with Rod Cuthbert, the founder of Viator, and exactly what he describes is again very much inspired from your work, which was right. In that time we were moving away from this Gordon Gekko he who dies with the most toys wins mentality that greed is good and that people were actually looking for more meaning in their lives and looking for experiences beyond material possessions, and you really struck a chord. And now we're going to be having much the same conversation about the transformation economy, but I don't think that word itself. It means different things to different people initially.
Speaker 2:So I really want to explain both your brand, Jake, and your book coming up, Joe. So, but before we do that, let's bring Joe into the conversation by explaining to our audience how you guys connected. Because, Jake, we caught up a few months ago at the Educational Travel Consortium Conference. I can see what great respect people have for you in the industry. We had dinner together. It was terrific. We've got so many great colleagues and friends in common. And then we discovered by virtue of that that actually you work closely with Joe and I was like no way. Joe's like one of my heroes. And here we are. So tell everyone how we got here or specifically, how you connected with Joe.
Speaker 3:Well, I'll jump in and just say I was one of those idols still am right, like I was aspiring, you know, to do work like Joe's work, right. I read his book and you know, I saw the references, you know the very forward-looking view on transformations in that experience economy, and so I, you know I, started reaching out and sending him messages and eventually he answered and we met while he uh, uh, uh, while he was having a breakfast at a hotel in San Francisco, uh and uh, and then the rest is history. He like he, you know, we, we, we vibed right away, we connected and and, and we both saw this sort of similar future or in regard to transformation, and we've been he's been mentoring and guiding advisory of the TTC, but, more importantly, just a wonderful friend. So, yeah, that's how I met Joe.
Speaker 2:So, joe, were you vibing right away too?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, but I'm blushing, now you can see me, I'm blushing through all this my wife says I don't need a bigger head, so you need to cut it out. But but yeah, I mean when when I discovered Jake, he said you said, eventually answered I'm pretty responsive with people contacting. I think it was pretty wild, but anyway, I'm glad we met. But TTC exemplifies so much of what I've been saying about the transformation economy and while while the book is coming out now, the idea is there from the very beginning.
Speaker 1:When I discovered the experience economy in 1994 and first started writing about it in 95, 96, 97, and then published the HBR article that everybody likes to cite in 98 and then the book in 99, you know the transformation was a core to it there and you know basically what my partner, jim Gilmore, and I talked about was this progression of economic value, about how, if you go back to millennia, that we've gone from an agrarian economy based off commodities to an industrial economy based off goods to a service economy, and then now we're in an experienced economy.
Speaker 1:And, like you said, dan, when I first started talking I used to have to argue with people that this was going on, and now I just say it and everybody gets it right.
Speaker 1:They really understand how much we prefer experiences over things and how much experiences are part of our daily lives and that. But then I'm always asking what next? My personal purpose in life is to figure out what's going on in the world of business and then develop frameworks that first describe what's happening and then prescribe what companies can do about it, and so part of that is like what's next, what's next? And so part and parcel of that experience, kind of, is recognize that we only ever change through the experiences that we have. You know that we're all the product of our experiences, as the saying goes, so that experiences would naturally change us and that you can design experiences to actually change people, and people have aspirations that they want. Met economy is an economy where people buy. Based on what effect is it going to have on me? What is the impact, as well as on the greater world in which I live?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and what I find fascinating about you, joe, and the work that you've done and I'm not now going to say we'll dial it back, both of us but your background in mathematics and technology. You're a scholar, you're a lecturer, you're an academic as well as a practitioner. You have your strategic horizons business, which you've had for more than 30 years, where you work with your partner, james on, with various companies and so like beyond just travel. But I find what's fascinating is that really, I mean the social sciences and this concept of how do you apply this concept? You can do it from an economic theory, but you can also apply it so broadly and I think that's where your concepts are. Yes, they're scholarly and academic, but they're widely applicable and, more importantly, accessible to a much wider audience as well, which is so rare to have that combination. We'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:Now back to the show, one of the things I really wanted to ask you about, so I'm going to go there first, even though I was going to save it for a little later, because I actually do want to talk about your book, and the reason I'm so eager is because I've been following your Substack and you've actually been bringing people like me on the journey. So it's transformationsbooksubstackcom, and Joe has been writing as he's been producing this. So you just made the connection that I really wanted to get to, which is that you already called out the transformation economy in your experiences economy book, so you knew this was actually what was coming. So tell us a little bit about the journey to get to this point. Here we are, as you say, 25 plus years later, with the next landmark work. So tell us a little bit about your journey to get to this point and what this new book is going to be about.
Speaker 1:Yeah, to some degree. The first eight chapters of the experience accounting were a Trojan horse to get you to read the last two chapters and recognize that this is really where the value is, both for businesses and for individuals. Right, there's no greater economic value you can create than to help somebody achieve his aspirations. So it was always there and I've been asked for 25 years when are you going to write a full book on transformations? And my answer is always twofold is one I don't know enough about it and two the world's not ready for it. Right, which I really believe People tell me all the time. The world wasn't ready for the experience economy and now it's finally catching up. Once you see it, you see it everywhere. But it really was true that the talking about transformations gets a little airy-fairy, also gets deep psychologically and sociologically and sometimes physiologically, and so it took a while for the people really to start to realize that they really do want these. They have these aspirations, they want to achieve them and they so often need help because it's very difficult to achieve our aspirations.
Speaker 1:A couple of milestones in making that happen. One is I partner with Dave Norton and his colleagues at Stone Mantle and Insights Consultancy, and they've been doing for, I want to say, almost 15, 20 years, these collaboratives where they're bringing a number of people together to do real consumer research. They pool the resources, they develop and then they each company gets to develop an experience strategy based off of that. Well, we started doing a track on transformations you know about five, six years ago and Jake and his his colleagues at the TTC joined in that and we started asking questions of consumers about transformations. Understanding what they were thinking about. It saw more possibilities, helped me develop more deep thinking about it, more frameworks about it, and so that was one of the things that said. You know, when we ask consumers and they're willing to answer questions about that, the world starts to be ready for it.
Speaker 1:And the other was the formation of the World Experience Organization that James Wallman founded in London again five, six years ago, and I'm one of the founders of it. He contacted me also says he doesn't want to start me unless he doesn't start it, unless he sort of has my permission. I said, well, you don't need my permission, but you have it and I want to help in any way I can, and particularly the summits that they've had the last three years, I've recognized that almost all of the experience designers in this world experience organization, which makes the largest share of its members, are doing transformative experiences or want to do transformative experiences and certainly recognize that transformative experiences or want to do transformative experiences and certainly recognize that. So, from both sort of the supply and the demand end, I recognize that. So, okay, now is the time to be able to do it.
Speaker 1:So I did start actual writing on it 18 months ago in anticipation of the substack coming up, which I started in March of last year, which I did as a catalyst to force me to write. Right, I really wanted to get this done. And now I got people that are asking for it, that signed up for it, many of which are paying for it, and so I said well, you know. Then I got to do that and that's really kept me to my nose, to the grindstone, so to speak, and also give me a lot of feedback. That's, in fact, made the book better, you know, far better than it would have if I hadn't done that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's excellent insights and greatly appreciate it and clearly it worked. It forced you to get this book out there into the world. That's going to happen.
Speaker 3:It's done, it's done.
Speaker 2:Exactly. I don't know if, Jake, have you seen an early copy? I know you've shipped it, Joe, to the publisher and tell everyone exactly when it comes out and when they're going to be able to get access to it.
Speaker 1:Well, the official publication date is February 3rd 2026, but that's just the date at which every bookstore in the world that wants it well, they promise to have it there. Actually, harvard gets printed books and starts shipping them out on December 23rd, so people can start getting them toward the end of the year or the beginning of the year. Harvard liked that because they liked the idea of the new book on the new you in the new year.
Speaker 2:Got it Okay. That's great to know, because a lot of our listeners, and certainly even a lot of our partners, will be not only interested to read the book, but also have you speak. I know you speak at a lot of key conferences. One of our partners of the series is Pernod Ricard. They're obviously, just like Jake and I, a big fan of yours as well and the journey that they've gone on.
Speaker 2:The second largest wine and spirits group globally. They have focused on building out all of their brand homes as truly experienced, transformational. Rather than just buying Jameson whiskey in a store, you can now go visit the Jameson distillery and have an experience that really elevates the whole brand promise. So, yeah, so I know I definitely need an early copy, however that happens. But, jake, to bring you back into this, and especially given that you have your latest survey, tell us a little bit about some of the big highlights from your 2025 Transformation Travel Report. I read it avidly as well. I've got a few takeaways and a few questions for you myself, but what were sort of for you, the biggest takeaways of publishing this that would be interesting to our listeners?
Speaker 3:Gosh, the research goes back a long way and really supports Joe's vision and we were able to identify and collaborate with some of the early thinking and research in the space that goes back 25, 30 years. And so you know, this latest collaborative that Joe talks about, getting that consumer research, the quantitative and qualitative data, really helps support what we knew to be true in our hearts, you know, and what people are craving, you know, and you know, I think it really illuminated this shift in the market that people are craving, you know and you know, I think it really illuminated this shift in the market that people are craving, you know, to have richer, more meaningful experiences. You know, I think that the industry has become extraordinarily superficial and artificial, you know, commoditized in a lot of ways and, as you know, as you see, with Joe's progression of economic value, as you move up, it becomes less commoditized, it becomes more personal, you know, and that's what the market's craving, you know. And so within that report, you know, we have some case studies and we got some examples of what this looks like in action. You know, when you have decided to embrace some of the thinking, gone through some sort of transformative process yourself, because it does take a fundamental shift and then start to implement, like practical tools and techniques, but it is a stepwise approach. It's that significant of a change and that's what I'm really excited to see with Joe's book book, you know, because he's going to really outline this in a way that makes it approachable for so many people.
Speaker 3:As Joe said, transformation is a tough word, you know. It is very loaded and some people are way more receptive to it than others. It's really easy as a buzzword and as a trend. It's a lot more difficult when you decide that you want to get into the transformation business, you know, and so I hope our report is able to convey a little bit of that message and inspire and motivate people to get into it, because there's a ton of opportunity to create meaningful value for travelers, hosts and communities in this dynamic.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it definitely does. And I'll just, if you don't mind, I'll share a few of my takeaways with our audience, because I know it's one of the things that I hear from our listeners when we're kicking off a new series. They really love to hear some of the stats and some of the more meaningful trends, the signals that they should be paying attention to. And one thing just to establish, because I was going to ask you both to kind of describe the transformational travel and I'll just do that from your report which is intentionally traveling to stretch, learn and grow in new ways of being and engaging with the world, which, for me, that's something that happens naturally when you're taking a trip with an adventure travel brand. For me, my first trip overseas was with Intrepid through Southeast Asia.
Speaker 2:I worked with G Adventures for many years and when we figured out the brand promise for G Adventures, way back in 2010, 2011, the whole concept was life-changing experiences. That's what we realized. People were coming back and saying I am changed from that experience. I've connected with locals, I've seen the world differently and I've come back changed and I'm a better human as a result of that. So it's something that Joe you've been able to describe you, specifically Jake, have put together a TTC framework based on psychology, mythology, neurobiology. That actually helps explain that, and this is the stuff I love reading about, because it's one of those things when you peel back the human brain and you were like you knew you enjoyed it, but someone else kind of actually helps explain to you why. What is the science behind, why you like a transformational experience.
Speaker 2:And then to all of our travel companies that are listening to this, this is the most important number you need to know In the US alone, transformational travel represents a $208 billion market opportunity. So when you think about people looking for personal growth, self-awareness and this whole podcast started as a post-pandemic how has traveler behavior changed? And how has traveler behavior changed? Almost overwhelmingly, it's been in the direction of wellness, mindfulness, sustainability, deeper connections with nature and communities, and all of that is factored into your report. So I just wanted to highlight that to all of our listeners, because when you hear reading a report, I actually encourage everyone to read it and look at your own takeaways. But the other thing I just wanted to ask you to while we're on this topic is how can organizations work with you Like right off the top, because I wasn't as familiar with TTC, and so when people listening to this are trying to figure out who you guys are, what you guys do, how do we work together, give everyone a bit of an understanding of that.
Speaker 3:I'll jump in. Yeah, the Transformation Travel Council you know being, you know, really the field builders, the thought leaders in the space, you know we've. We identified that. You know, if we wanted to create, create the positive change that we desire, if we wanted to get a transformation business, then we had to create a movement and collect businesses and you know, other operators, hoteliers, across the category, that were waking up to the potential of this and create a community. And so, you know, that was step one. And so now we are, you know, really seen as an experience development or experience design school, and so we have public programs, like our signature experience development training, six weeks and it's not enough, right, like, this is what's so exciting about this opportunity in this space. And then we do consulting, so we work with hotels and destinations, specifically travel companies that are, you know, either dipping a toe into it or have been in it for years. Right, it covers the entire spectrum, you know. But this gets into some of the nuts and bolts on how to do it.
Speaker 2:And tell everyone just what are some of the biggest challenges, because clearly there's a huge opportunity. Both of you have identified that, but part of the reason that people don't take action is because there's roadblocks. What do you think those are for people trying to adopt a transformational approach, and how would you suggest they would overcome them?
Speaker 3:You want to take that one, Joe?
Speaker 1:Sure, the biggest problem always is with any business and transforming itself, is mindset. It was that they have an old mindset. People have had a service mindset made difficult for them to shift into true, distinctive experiences. And even with an experience mindset, I think it's easier because, again, it's transformative experiences. You're still experienced staging but, but it's still difficult to think about how you might use them to to transform people. And, and so I'll mention here what I think is the way to do it that I talk about in the book, which is, which is what I call encapsulation, right To turn any experience into a transformative one is you need to encapsulate it with things that the TTC talks about and are very academically researched.
Speaker 1:I just put the name encapsulation on them all together, which is first of all with preparation, is how do you prepare people? How do you give them the right mindset? Going into the experience, get them thinking about what the possibilities are If they're going into it without like often with adventure travel, dan, like you talked about, you're not going in with the specific aspirations that you discover that there's something that you want to change while you're there. So you want to open them up to that possibility, people that do have an aspiration, get them thinking about why they want to change, what are the benefits of it, and so forth. Then you have the experience and then you need two other parts that encapsulate it on the back end, which is reflection and integration. And reflection is where you think about the experience that you've had. What were the highlights of it? What did spark something in me, what did perhaps even start to change something in me? But so often this is particularly the case with travel is that spark will dissipate over time, that the change won't last. And to have a true transformation it needs to last through time, needs to be sustained through time. And that requires integration. That requires you not saying, ok, the trip's over, go home right. No, it's that you've got to continue working with them or give them the tools with which they can work with themselves to integrate that into their lives, to keep it going and to eventually change. And the TTC perfectly exemplifies that.
Speaker 1:I'll mention this book, the Transformational Travel Journal, that, in collaboration with the TTC, the Transformational Travel Council, eric Rupp wrote, and in it they talked about the path right P-A-T-H, right Four words, which is prepare there's preparation, adventure there's the experience you have. Think. That's the reflection and honor, and it talks especially intentional again, jake, I love to use the word intentional by my afterward to my book is all focused on intention. Intentional transformation occurs when you honor your insights and integrate them into your life right so that perfectly exemplifies what you need to do. And this just giving them this at the end of the trip and letting them work, or before the trip and letting them work on it will, will help encapsulate that experience, will help make it last. We'll turn it into a, a true transformation.
Speaker 3:Dan, can I jump on that a little bit.
Speaker 3:He's right about mindset and, you know, in terms of the, the business and the tourism space, what we see is in terms of a challenge is, you know, is the lack of beginner's mind.
Speaker 3:We've been doing this for a long time and so people think and it's true, travel is inherently transformational. That can happen, but when we start to introduce new perspectives, new approach, new philosophy, people tend to think I've been doing this for 20 years, what are you going to teach me? Right, like I work with luxury travelers from around the world, what possibly am I going to learn? You know, by shifting into the transformation, there's naturally a lot of pushback, which is why we all of our programming, you know, when we work with destinations, when we work with some of the, you know the hotels and such, or even our course, is transformative in itself. Right, we have to transform their minds in order to get them to think and be and do differently, and you know so that's super critical, especially in this emerging phase right now, where people have a little bit of a dissonance around what it is and what's possible.
Speaker 2:For sure, and there's two things I want to dive into with both of you on these topics. One is around sustainability and the concept of regenerative travel, and the other one I definitely want to touch on with you both is technology, because that certainly shifted so substantially in the last five years, let alone the last 20 years. But, in terms of connecting, one of the posts that you published a few months ago, joe, that I really enjoyed was purpose and meaning, and one of the things you called out in that blog post is that meaning is core to who we are as human beings, and certainly this podcast gives me both meaning and purpose, and when our listeners respond, as they will, very positively to this episode, I'm sure, given you both as guests, it gives incredible validation that we're right, on the right track, we're on the right path and that whole idea of the path, the hero's journey, the storytelling, and so let's talk about sustainability and regenerative travel first, because if we're trying to connect with people on that human level and humans are obviously very selfish by nature it's part of the reason that we've got this far in our journey and so they're looking like what's in it for them right, and it's like that's obviously a key to marketing as well. So, you know, trying to create an experience or a transformation that people want to be a part of. You know this in-destination series that we're doing now, featuring different businesses that are trying to create a reason to go to a destination like the Sphere in Las Vegas, to use one kind of extreme example.
Speaker 2:But people have always traveled for sightseeing. They've always had some sort of purpose or mission to you know, it's been religious travel. It's, you know, pilgrimage. It's the golden age of travel, when it was only the wealthy that could go and see the pyramids. But when we think about the age that we live in now post-pandemic, where we saw what the world looked like when planes weren't in the air and many parts of the world got to start to regrow and regenerate and this concern that the resources in this world are finite and climate change is real what are we all doing to make sure that these opportunities will still be there for future generations?
Speaker 2:So one of the questions I always ask our guests on our podcast that our listeners know I always ask about sustainability and I get a wide range of responses from it's still people still don't care to. People are starting to care to some people really care. So, jake, maybe start with you. Because sustainability, regenerative travel how do you frame that conversation and how important is that in transformational travel? Because I certainly see brands that connect themselves to transformational travel Intrepid being a great example instantly jumping on concerns about overtourism and very much focused on sustainability. So tell us a little bit about how you're seeing sustainability and regenerative travel in 2025 and beyond.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, tourism is an existential crisis. You know it is extractive. We want it to be additive and I've been working in the sustainable tourism space for, you know, 20, 25 years. That's why I got into. Travel was a desire, following the ecotourism society early on. Sustainable tourism Going through that and going back to my story at the beginning in terms of recognizing we just weren't having the impact that we wanted and the tours that we were operating, I started to recognize that transformation was the missing link in our pro-social and pro-environmental movements.
Speaker 3:If we don't look at change through the lens of human capacity and getting people to think and connect and feel differently, then we're not going to be able to move the needle on some of these initiatives. It has to come from the inside out. As Joe has said, you can take a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. So when we look at sustainable tourism or becoming more sustainable or even getting sustainable pro-sustainability behaviors at home and on the road, people have to have a deeper connection with nature and with others and with different cultures. And so transformation that's what it's about.
Speaker 3:It's about helping people become more present, more aware, more conscious of how they're engaging their own experiences that drive the results that are not just good for them but good for all, you know. And so, in regard to regeneration and regenerative, it's a wonderful movement toward there's a lot around regenerative travel like leave a place better than you found it Like. To me that's great, but like my grandpa, you know, taught me that from a very early age that's like common sense, of course we should leave a place better than we found it. I think regeneration is around creating the fertile conditions for all life to thrive and it's within that mindset and cooperating in that way, you know, from a destination's perspective, you know, sort of using nature as a blueprint that creates the conditions for visitors and the visited to have transformative experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's one of the things I love about the TTC and what they're doing there. It's not just about the traveler, it's about the destinations and the places in which they're going. In the chapter, dan, where you mentioned, where I talk about the importance of purpose and meaning as one of four spheres of transformation, right for sort of like industries, the core of that chapter is the basic premise of which is the raison d'etre of business. Right, the reason for existence of business and capitalism period is to foster human flourishing. Right Is to help humans flourish.
Speaker 1:And if you don't do that, as a friend of mine, stan Husted, said, then you're just a racket. Right, if that's not what you're about and that when you, as a business, recognize that, you then need your own meaningful purpose. Right, that gives the employees meaning. Right, that's a part and parcel of that purpose. And meaning is it needs to have as its end goal to help people flourish in some way, shape or form. And that's not just about the customers, that's about the employees. Right, the people that are doing that work with that purpose, getting that meaning, have to flourish as well.
Speaker 1:And that means also that you have responsibility for the communities in which you reside, in which you work, for your society overall, in which you're incorporated and, yes, for the planet. That that is part and parcel. You can't sacrifice other communities and other planets in order to make a profit in helping these particular people flourish. Right, it's got to be all or one. And to be very clear, I'm not talking about any rights that stakeholders have on you as an enterprise. I'm talking about your responsibilities as an enterprise, right to human flourishing, and so the sustainability and regenerativeness needs to be understood as a basic part and parcel of what you do as a business. It's, just again, just the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting. I was asking Shannon Stoll, who many of you know, as well as the CEO of adventure travel and trade association, and actually Eric Blatchford, um, not to just mention his name. He was part of our ATTA spotlight episode and one of the questions I asked him around sustainability was that no one's going to trust a business today that's at ATTA or involved in that community that doesn't have sustainability at its core. You just won't last long anymore. People will not choose your business, and so that certainly applies in the adventure travel space, but not broadly across travel yet, unfortunately.
Speaker 2:But I do see that change. So, just to finish off this conversation for both of you, are you both, I would say, either bullish or confident that you're starting to see those consumer behavior changes? I would say either bullish or confident that you're starting to see those consumer behavior changes. Maybe I'll ask you Joe first, because obviously a part of that human flourishing, are people now more than ever willing to make either sacrifices in terms of price or compromising sometimes experience for staying at an eco lodge, Like where? Where do you see consumer behavior changing as it relates to being regenerative and sustainable and choosing companies?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think on the consumer side it is changing, but it's changing slowly and I'm hoping that this book and others that are talking about human flourishing will help people realize what they need to do, and I wrote the book very strongly, not just with this is what your business needs to do, but also a very personal angle right and helping you personally transform, and transform in ways that are beneficial to you as well as to the world. That's great.
Speaker 2:And Jake. Similarly, are you now more encouraged with the work that you're doing and the change you're seeing in the industry in 2025? And you know, all of a sudden, we're going to be in 2030 before we know it and companies like Intrepid are highlighting that they're going to get to a billion dollars in sales and, in fact and this is where these companies that you and I have worked with are only 10 years ago with a $50 million companies, $100 million companies, now they're billion dollar companies and obviously that concern is growth also comes with a cost and so, yeah, keen to understand your view on this and what you're seeing, are you optimistic in the next five years, that consumers will increasingly embrace this?
Speaker 3:shift and been on the front lines with a lot of colleagues like Shannon Stoll in that movement towards sustainability, and it has been slow and I think recently there's been some positive momentum that I hope continues to carry forward. But I do think that this is where the potential of transformational travel and transformation economy it gets people to engage differently. You apply a growth mindset when you're working within this dynamic and that immediately gets you to open up and make different choices as you become more aware, and so those naturally lead to the behavior change that I think we need to really accelerate toward our sustainability or regenerative initiatives.
Speaker 1:And I do believe that businesses can lead this right. If they recognize that they're about human flourishing, then they can encourage that amongst their employees, which will affect what they do when they act as individual consumers, as well as the customers that they have.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I really appreciate both your valuable insights. On that. I remain optimistic as well, but I'm always keen to dive into it just because every conversation like this takes us a little step further. Someone else we may reach in this conversation may then reevaluate some of the decisions they're making and ensure I mean bookingcom now has a filter for, you know, green or eco-friendly accommodation options. So, like you know, as consumers are given choices, and I think we've certainly struggled as a industry with carbon offsets and, like some of the decisions that we make around, how do you make travel more sustainable? We often put pressure on people, make people feel guilty and do things that actually are not. To one of Joe's big points about making not only humans flourish but businesses thrive and so we introduce constraints, or even, anyway, we could.
Speaker 2:We could go on with these examples, because I'm still, I'm still fed up of seeing the sign in the hotel room about my towels. That's not the that's. That's not the answer.
Speaker 1:No, they're saving money by not washing the towels. Everybody knows that. Yeah, exactly.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. Spend a lot of time on that, specifically because it's changing so rapidly. We're hosting our AI summit, as you know, later this year. We did it last year. The whole reason that we're doing that is not because I'm an AI expert, but I see a difference between what's happening on stage and what executives for various travel companies have been talking about and what I'm truly seeing on the ground with the startups and how quickly travel companies are being transformed by this technology, like the potential that contact centers won't exist in a year, the potential that SEO and Google search as we know it is going to be cut in half in the next six to 12 months, not only customer service and marketing and business efficiency, and there's all these incredible gains, and it's across many sectors, right From healthcare to so travel is just one and, if anything, travel is behind.
Speaker 2:So I want to just share the story and bring people together that actually have best in case examples of how AI is being applied, so that we can share that more broadly and more people can benefit from it, as opposed to people talking about how it will or it might, I want to show how it is already transforming our travel industry, and so, if we think about this, though, it's really the concept of technology and where technology plays a role and, interestingly, when I have some of these conversations, I do speak to organizations that almost see themselves as anti-AI.
Speaker 2:We are WeRoad being a great example of that Terrific tour operator that is very focused on that kind of youth segment unplug, connect. Younger people are more disconnected than ever. They're lonely, there's like, just by virtue of having social networks, and technology has not made people profoundly happier. We've certainly seen that and I'm keen to get your views on this. But really I just want to have an open discussion about technology as it relates to the transformation economy and specifically travel. So maybe, jake, let's go back and start with you. Where do you see technology playing a beneficial role in the transformation economy today, and even if there are some examples of that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I think specifically to travel, because we could go much more broad on this and I've got many opinions on this. But I think, in regard to travel, tourism and transformation and we've sort of hinted at this both Joe and I as we've gone through this conversation human capacity, human potential, human flourishing, AI, whether people are ready for it, or not, are going to force us back into our human nature. It's going to. You know, knowledge, you know, is, is, is, doesn't have the same value. What is going to have value is our ability to be more human, you know, and people are demonstrating that they want to have more connections, they want to have more friendships, they want to have longer conversations. So it's a beautiful opportunity for forward-looking hotels and destinations and travel companies to really shift their thinking and really focus on some of those soft skills, Like how can we really elevate our ability to connect with others as human beings? And that supports the work that we're doing perfectly, you know, I don't know. How do you feel, Joe?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would echo that. I think I think some futurist once said that every trend sows a seed for its counter trend. So as we get more digitally used, then being more human in fact does have value in being with with humans is what people will increasingly seek. I do think, as businesses that they should. They should abandon the term AI and instead talk about IA Right, not about artificial intelligence, but about intelligent augmentation, that it's augmenting humans where that that technology can be best, not automating them out of, out of existence. And but there are a number of areas where we're tech, not digital. Technology in general and in particular, can help in transformations. One the integration aspect that I talked about, which happens after, particularly with travel, you're physically together. Well, technology can really help you do that, and related to that is what it's excellent at is customization that you can better customize what you're doing. You get to know individual people. You can remember who they are, what they're about, what their aspirations are, what things they like, dislike, like the acronym DNA, their desires, their needs and their aspirations and then better deliver those to them individually. And customization is actually how I originally discovered that progression of economic value.
Speaker 1:My first book was on mass customization and I discovered that if you customize a service, you automatically turn it into an experience. What does it turn an experience into? Is that transformation automatically turn into an experience? What does it turn experience into? Is that transformation? And then the other thing is I've been talking a lot for a while about experience platforms. Right, you mentioned bookingcom. You know Airbnb. They're matching platforms allow people to choose what experiences they want to have. But there are also operational experience platforms that make the journey go better, whatever that journey is, and travel in other places. The best one in the world, I mean one of the original ones was you think about the magic band at Disney and how it connects your experience through there. But the Ocean Medallion at Carnival Cruises and the Princess Cruise Line. That gives you a mass customized itinerary that will change and adapt to your needs. What they discover about you, they'll learn about you. You can even remember things like when you're on the pool deck with your kids, your favorite drink is an iced tea with no lemon, when you borrow your buddies, it's a mojito, and when you're in a restaurant with your spouse, it's a glass of Chirac. Right and presciently offered those things to you.
Speaker 1:Well, now we're starting to see the rise of transformation platforms that can help you transform. One I'll point to is BetterUp, originally B2B but now B2C and directly to C, which is a coaching platform, and it's based on behavioral science and using machine learning as well as generative AI. Um allows you to select among you know, they, they, they, they, they do a diagnosis of you recommend. Here's three different coaches that you can take advantage of and you can select one of those. If you don't like those you know, you swipe left, whatever the mechanism is, and get another three and then you can start to interact with them.
Speaker 1:But then AI can, as it does in many, many weight loss arenas, and that can provide advice between the live human-to-human coaching sessions. I hope it doesn't ever replace the human. We can augment what they do when they're not available, when you need immediate help and be able to continue you on that journey. And I think we're eventually going to get transformation platforms that, for example, with any travel journey you go on right again. You should be able to have that mass customized journey about how you differ than other people. Various things have the reflections, come in at the right point, have those opportunities to spark different people and prime them, prepare them in different ways based on what their aspirations are, and then continue that long after the physical journey is over.
Speaker 2:So interesting. And the thing I'd love to ask you on that, joe, given where we are in 2025 with experiences, what do you think the current reality of the experience economy is and where it's headed? You gave us some great examples there of the transformational economy and some excellent examples of where companies are by virtue of technology and meeting customers where they are today to meet their needs. When we think about Meow Wolf, experiences like that that, you know, during the pandemic, obviously we saw a lot of this. You know the most common word was immersive experiences, and I'm sure everyone's asked you, Joe, tell me more about this just big trend of immersive experiences. Everything. Everyone reads about it, but an event today is it has to be immersive, yeah, immersive. So tell me what you see as the state of the experience economy today, in 2025, and where you think it's headed over the next few years, and obviously I know that's a key theme in your book. So I'd love to hear your take on where we are, where we're headed.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the state of the experience economy is very good, except for the movie industry. It's like fully back from the pandemic. But, as I think both of you alluded to, one of the things that happened with the pandemic obviously is we couldn't experience things, we couldn't get together with people. Any place you gather is a place you didn't want to be, and so when it came back, what I saw, too, again everything I'm talking about has always been around, so just shifting in desires and in offerings and in offerings.
Speaker 1:But there is a shift from merely memorable experiences that engage you to more meaningful experiences that connect with who you are individually, where you get the sympathetic vibration that goes back and forth, that says, yeah, that's meaningful to me, that helps me create meaning in my life, but then also towards more transporting experiences, and transporting experiences are those that are transcendent, that take us out of ourselves, that get us into flow, where all sense of time washes away, that gives us awe at God's creation and at moral beauty and other things that give awe.
Speaker 1:And that's where transformational travel truly excels is those all moments that you have uh, uh in nature, uh. And then, finally, the fourth level of experience is transformative experiences, and again, people increasingly desire those transformative experiences which, with that encapsulation, can turn into full transformations that last in your life. So, to that degree, the transformation economy is like embedded within and also superseding the experience economy. Right, they're much more intertwined than like services and experiences are, although all the economics offerings are built on top of each other. You know, the really thing I'd like to say is that what we're really shifting from is goods and services, with an ampersand right Goods and services to experiences and transformations.
Speaker 2:So interesting, so interesting, jake. How are you seeing this as it relates to the Transformational Travel Council and the work that you're doing with various partners? To Joe's point, where do you see the experience economy today and as we transition to this truly now transformational economy?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, I mean, as, as Joe said, I think the experience economy is, is, is is very well, uh, established and received, Uh, but yet there are a lot of organizations out there in travel and tourism that really haven't wrapped their head around that yet, uh, you know. So there's still plenty of opportunity, uh, to just better understand and be more thoughtful and intentional in how we design and deliver experiences. Transformations is a game changer, right, and it's going to really push people out of their comfort zones to really meet that emerging demand, which is exciting. But that does require sort of this shift into better understanding and motivating the customer or the traveler, right, and like, one of the ways that I like to put it. That, I think, sort of simplifies it.
Speaker 3:It's a complex topic. Is this shift from like? In travel we often talk about where do we want to go and what do we want to do? Right, those are typically the conversation starters, you know, and just shifting it from like why, why do we want to go and how do we want to do it better changes the dynamic completely and it opens up opportunity for people to be moved down a transformative path rather than just engaging experiences or stage experiences like, like, like Joe says, and tell, tell everyone.
Speaker 2:You got a pretty robust manifesto for your organization and I think it's very meaningful. I mean, there's various parts of it that certainly really resonate with me. But tell everyone where you're headed and what your vision is for this organization oh good, uh, good one.
Speaker 3:yeah, you know I, where am I headed when I you know, when I started down this path, you know I felt you, you know in my bones that we were onto something big. And you know I feel and get up every morning committed to transforming tourism. You know it's such an incredible lever of change. You know, and if we're able to shift into this transformation economy you know as a space, over time and it's going to take time, decades you know that we will be able to really bring a positive impact, you know, to our lives at home, our lives in our community and, you know, our lives in society. So you know travel and tourism is our best education. Let's activate it and even if we just change one person, one community at a time, it has that potential. So, as we continue to grow, I mean we're pretty steadfast in being committed to that end goal and really see that as possible.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I'm so excited that, given the workshops, the report, all the initiatives you have underway and we'll come to'll come to that at the end of the conversation, just to make sure that people can follow up and connect with you both, which I'm sure they're going to be very keen to do, if they're not already indulging, as we're multitasking.
Speaker 2:While I would love this conversation to continue and potentially we can do a, a part two at some point in season six, we can, we can book and season five and season six together, because that would be, that would be awesome.
Speaker 2:So, jake, I'm going to come back to you with one other question. Then I'm going to go to you, joe, with something similar, which is, you know, for our global listeners, we have, you know, listeners, 125 countries, and there's thousands of people listening to this podcast that are looking for inspiration, advice and trying to figure out how they apply it to their tour operating business, their travel agency there, um and so one of the things I would love for you to be able to share with all of our listeners is that you know, given all of your experience and and and wisdom, what would you give to any of our listeners that actually do want to adopt a transformational approach. Obviously, you guys have talked about the importance of mindset being a key part of it, but what sort of the advice that you would give to these companies that want to stay relevant in this new transformational economy? What are the key elements they need to be thinking about factoring in asking themselves to reevaluate their business to be relevant in 2025 and beyond?
Speaker 3:Uh, yeah, you know, I think the first one would be be open, stay curious, right, like, see, consider what might be possible within that, that framing of, of travel and shifting it away from a product to a process.
Speaker 3:You know, and and and Joe mentioned the path framework that we use to prepare adventure, think, honor, like that, that is, is, is is significant, you know, and so that is engaging the market, your traveler, your customer, well before any sort of trip or journey unfolds, and continuing that. You know well, past, they've returned and that's that's really the, the, the opportunity that I think exists in space, in our space, is how do you take those peak experiences that we have when we travel? We come back home, we landed home, and then it's so fleeting, right? So the the tourism companies and the hotels that are able to keep that fire burning and set up different milestones and check-in points help you sustain motivation. You know, that is where the opportunity to create the real value and impact is. You know, and who do you think that person's going to call, or where do you think they're going to go? You know, three, six months or a year later, when you've helped them, you know, activate change and they're ready to go on another trip. They're gonna call you yeah exactly.
Speaker 2:And I just wanna underscore one point the difference between the way I've seen marketers operate to exactly your point is like a CRM or a customer journey. Post-trip is like, at best, hey, you traveled with us last year, you wanna travel again, or hey, it's your birthday. Happy birthday, I really know you because I took your birthday down when you like, book this trip.
Speaker 2:So now I'm going to send you a birthday message with the clear, express personal interest of like you're ready to book again. And uh, one of the people that I uh, so, simon Sinek, I'm a, I'm a, uh, certainly a fan of his work and you know, starting with why, and one of the things that he talks about more recently and I really loved, especially in the age of AI, is, you know, he gave this example at the virtuoso conference last year. It was really, I found it quite profound, but it's a simple concept is that friends check in on each other and friends ask them how they're doing. And I, one of the things I, I, I love about the team that I have, a travel transit, five of us that run this podcast. We are, we're in touch all day on Slack and once in a while I'll get a message saying how's your day going, or like how, and it means the world to me, because actually, you know, I'm, I'm stressed, I'm overwhelmed, I'm like, I like, and so it's not a hey, can you do this for me, it's like and I actually make a more conscious effort to ask that we always ask how are you, but a company that really is invested in your own personal interest.
Speaker 2:Use, joe's example of like you're investing in a business or a platform that is truly transformational. You're going to be asking very different questions than what most companies are asking today, so I love that. I'm sure it's very valuable to make our journeys and experiences more meaningful. So, joe, along the same lines, but given you, you know you have such a powerful voice in the business community, I really wanted to kind of ask you when we think about entrepreneurs and businesses that are looking to innovate within the transformation economy, what advice would you give them? Clearly, you've got a new book that's going to give them a lot of advice, but what would be some of the key elements that you would like to be able to share with them?
Speaker 1:Well, there's a question that I basically start and end the new book with what business are you really in? Understand what business you are really in, and if you agree that you're in the business of guiding transformations, as I call it right, you're guiding transformations, then you do ascend to that proposition and then everything else flows from there. Then you can figure out what you can do. And then in the book I've got chapter after chapter of frameworks and guidelines for how you can go about doing that, including this three-phrase process that you need to do, including the encapsulation that you mentioned. And in fact I've always got to practice what I preach, and so I put encapsulation in the book itself, right? So the forward is called preparation and I said here I'm laying out what's going on. Here's questions to ask yourself First one what business are you really in? Right? And then go through, and at the end of every chapter I've got three or four reflection questions and three or four preparation questions that prepare you to read the next chapter.
Speaker 1:Now, I know most readers are just going to skip by that. They may scan it and say, ok, you know, I just want to get on the time to be able to do that as a business, then it will be greatly rewarding in terms of changing your thinking and actually transforming you and how you think and how you think about business in general and your business in particular, about your customers, about your employees, about the world. Then that will carry through as you go through the book and then the afterward that I mentioned earlier is actually called reflection. What I can't do is integration through the book, but I actually have in there as part of that reflection talk about the fact that we're going to have a website based off of integration and help people have a series of programmatic offerings that people can actually use to integrate what they learned in that book into their lives and and into the businesses. And I hope that you know alone makes a a a big difference with companies. So it's not just a reading exercise but it becomes a transformation uh journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's excellent. This is such valuable feedback, gentlemen, and the one last question I have for you both and this is certainly one that we'll be able to then touch base on six months from now is, I would you know, in addition to the advice you kindly both shared, looking forward, whether it's five years or 10 years, if you might be able to share either one prediction or one of your main trends that you're paying attention to? That, you think, is how travel is going to change. Obviously, everything we're talking about covers this, but if we could point to one specific example, jake, let's start with you Like what are you thinking about when you look towards 2030 to say this is actually how I think travel is going to change by virtue of this shift to a transformational economy on the horizon.
Speaker 3:You know, I I would say that, uh, uh, at least what I see is is, you know, continued expansion into, into transformations. Uh, you know, I think we're living in a time where it is a very much a story of separation we're disconnected from ourselves, we're connect disconnected from each other, we're disconnected from nature. Uh and uh, I think, as we continue down this path, over the next 10-year, tourism is going to evolve into acknowledging the sacredness of travel and the opportunity that travel has to honor our commonalities, reconnect us with nature, help us bring more awareness and patience and kindness to our lives and to our world, and I think that travel and tourism is going to, you know, help us nurture, you know, those parts of us that need nurturing, you know, so we can be better versions of ourselves. You know, I think you know, people are going to start recognizing, especially with over-tourism and flight shaming.
Speaker 3:You know, going to travel, and we should, but I think we'll become more conscious of if we're going to travel, we should be focused on some sort of outcome, some sort of gaining more meaning, gaining a new skill, gaining more insight, being way more intentional about it. It doesn't, it's no longer just an escape right To go sit on the beach. If that's the case, go to your own beach, right? Let's bring travel back to what it was. You know what it was meant to do in the first place, and that was really to improve our lives and improve our society.
Speaker 1:And I will echo that word.
Speaker 1:You again use Jake, which is intentionality, because what we'll bring to travel on both sides of the Jake, which is intentionality, is what will bring to travel on both sides of the equation on the consumer side, the traveler side, and on the business side is intentionality.
Speaker 1:That people will more so go into travel with the intention of change, with having an aspiration. Right Today is largely happenstance that somebody changes while they travel. Right, it's the most prevalent method, because we are most open to change when we travel and we get out of our quotidian lives. Tension of helping them transform versus just trying to give them a good time or to instill awe or to get them thinking about the destinations that they're going in, and so forth. And then the one other thing I'll say Dan answered your question is what I talked about before is, as in five to 10 years, I think, most people will travel via a transformation platform, right, or at least an experience platform, and they'll actually merge together with travel, because sometimes you're just the experience, sometimes you want the full transformation and again it's all intertwined together, as though you'll use a transformation to platform to travel and that technology will enable you to have more human connections when you are there, as well as more transformation coming out of it.
Speaker 2:Wow, that's very profound thoughts from both of you, as I should expect. The one thing I just have to ask, though, because I was going to say I'll leave this for next time, but I'm sure all of our listeners will go. Dan, you should have asked that additional question, which I get text messages after these launch too.
Speaker 2:So that's the expectation from the audience I'm always trying to think about. What they would like me to ask is, in addition to what I really want to ask myself. But, joe and Jake, we you mentioned Airbnb and obviously they've gone back to experiences. So this is a question that we'll pick up in more detail next time. Otherwise, we're going to spend, we're going to, we'll leap back into this. But when you talk about a transformational platform, would Airbnb, by virtue of doing short-term rentals and experiences, be an example of that?
Speaker 1:Yes, it can be. It is not. I mean, it's already a matching platform. It's not yet an operational platform and I think that's a huge opportunity. If you go, look at the new tabs that have put in, it's got a services tab, but you look at those services. Many of those services are, in fact, experiences. You know, like having your nails done is not just about the nails, it's about people touching your hands and treating you and talking to you, and if you're there with friends, right, it's the socialness of it. And then many of the experiences are transformations, like fitness, like spas and like wellness experiences and so forth. But it's the connective tissue. So I book this and then I'm looking at where am I supposed to book that? What they need to do is think about the journey of what you book, when and how it all comes together, and then the intentionality that you bring into it and letting the service provider, the experience stage or the transformation guider on the other end, know your intentionality, know your aspiration going into that, and then great things can happen.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I'll build on it. Knowing the aspiration and that comes back to what you mentioned about Simon Seneca, I'm also a big fan it's one thing to ask someone their why. It's another thing to be able to extract from a second or third vault perspective what their true motivations are. Are they feeling burnt out? Are they feeling disoriented? Are they feeling lost? Are they feeling excited and energized? Going into a deeper appreciation for why we actually travel, not the surface-based questions, is key, and platforms like Airbnb that can start to take steps, baby steps, into that and ask really, really powerful questions on the front end that get travelers or guests to engage their experience differently, are going to be the companies that really lead in this next generation of travel and tourism. That really lead in this next generation of travel and tourism.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. That's a perfect note to finish our first conversation on who's going to lead the way. So I look forward to many of our listeners providing their feedback and, by all means, let me know what you want to ask these gentlemen in our next conversation so we can prepare for a part two. But clearly, you can connect with them both well before that and keep in touch with everything that they're working on. So, jake, please tell us the best ways for people to reach out to you, whether it be on LinkedIn, social channels. Of course, you got the website, transformationaltravel, that I definitely encourage everyone to check out, but what would be the best ways to connect with you?
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, linkedin is a great place and my email is jake at transformationaltravel, definitely excited to welcome more people into our global community and share ideas and go on this journey with those that are really interested in getting into the transformation business and transformation economy as it relates to travel.
Speaker 2:Joe, obviously we mentioned your Substack, but clearly there's lots of places people can find you on the interwebs.
Speaker 1:Yes, the information superhighway, again, you mentioned transformationsbooksubstackcom. Linkedin. It's slash, joe Pine, very easy J-O-E-P-I-N-E. And then the company website is strategichorizonscom. Strategichorizons with an S dot com, fantastic.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you again, joe. Thank you, jake, especially Jake. Thanks for bringing us all together. Thank you, joe, for making the time for this. It was such a valuable and important discussion and I can't thank you both enough and I look forward to keeping in touch with you both. Thank you, dan.
Speaker 3:Hey Dan, you're doing great work.
Speaker 2:We appreciate you, dan, very honored to be here. And joe, thanks for for jumping in with us. Man hey, thanks for bringing along thanks. Thanks so much for joining us on the latest episode of travel trends. I really hope you have enjoyed this deep dive into the world of in destination experiences as part of season five, sponsored by our friends over at perno ricard. We started with christian latchell from brc imagination arts. We then had laura cilioat from Pernod Ricard join us and today, as you just heard, we had the legendary Joe Pine, the best-selling author of the Experience Economy and the upcoming Transformation Economy, as well as Jake Haupert, the co-founder of the Transformational Travel Institute.
Speaker 2:I found this conversation so inspiring and I'm absolutely delighted that they're gonna rejoin us in season six to continue the conversation, and I just wanted to make sure that all of our listeners know that we do post clips and highlights on our social channels, so be sure to check out Instagram, youtube and LinkedIn. And then don't forget to subscribe to our monthly newsletter, which you can find on TravelTrendsPodcastcom. Thanks again to the Pernod Ricard team for sponsoring this series. We're so excited to be bringing this theme back for season six. Feel free to reach out to me at any time, dan at travel trends podcastcom for ideas, suggestions for our upcoming season six.
Speaker 2:We have one more episode in store for you now. In season five, we have rod cuthbert joining us next week, who is the founder of viator. We thought it was a great way to not only cap off this season, but also as a follow on to the conversations about in-destination experiences. So make sure that you are subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice to be notified when new episodes go live, and we'll look forward to having you joining us next week. Until then, safe travels.
