Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Crafting Immersive In-Destination Experiences with BRC Imagination Arts
In the kickoff episode of our "In-destination Experiences" series, we speak with Christian Lachel, Chief Creative Officer of BRC Imagination Arts, who has spent over 25 years crafting some of the world's most engaging travel experiences. From the award-winning Jameson Distillery Bow Street in Dublin to the Ford Rouge Factory Tour, Christian shares the secrets behind designing spaces that transform how visitors think, feel, and connect.
We dive into the $1.3 trillion in-destination experience industry, exploring how Christian's team turns ordinary venues into unforgettable memory-makers. A standout example is the Jameson Distillery, where they doubled capacity while capturing the essence of Irish hospitality and storytelling.
Christian also highlights how thoughtfully designed travel experiences can counteract digital disconnection, fostering play, connection, and shared moments. His optimistic approach shows how technology can enhance, not replace, human interaction.
Whether you're in tourism, cultural management, or just curious about what makes travel magical, Christian's insights will change how you see the places you visit. His advice for aspiring designers? Be "Renaissance people" with broad expertise in business, storytelling, and operations.
👉 Listen to Crafting Immersive In-Destination Experiences Now
🔥 Season 5 Title Sponsors: TravelAI, Stay22, Propellic, Flight Centre, Collette, Flywire, Traveltek and Protect Group
The #1 B2B Travel Podcast Globally. Over 100 Episodes. Listeners in 125 countries. New Episodes Every Weds. Season 6 launches in September.
https://www.traveltrendspodcast.com/
I think there's a sense of being people looking for, play, enjoy, and I think when we do that in the right way, we give people the um, we give people the permission or we create the structure of the place where that feels free to do without feeling judged.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome back to travel trends. This is your host, dan Christian, and we're about to begin our final deep dive of season five, and we're going to be focusing on the world of in-destination experiences sponsored by our friends at Pernod Ricard, and our first guest is Christian Latchell, who is the Chief Creative Officer at BRC Imagination Arts. Now, before we get to Christian and give some more context to this overall conversation, I just wanted to highlight I think we have saved the best theme and speakers for our final series. We're already now in preparation for season six and some of these guests, as you'll hear, will be rejoining us next season, and we're also going to have our final episode, which will feature the founder of Viator, rod Cuthbert. And if you have any suggestions for us on topics and themes for season six, please be sure to reach out anytime, dan, at traveltrendspodcastcom. Now we've started this path of themes going into season four and it's certainly been one of the most popular aspects of our show. But one of our most popular guests, laura Cilio Pavat, who runs the brand homes at Pernod Ricard, and her and I were talking about themes for season five, and one of the things both of us were keen to explore further was this idea of in-destination experiences.
Speaker 2:Now, this show, of course, came out of the pandemic as we wanted to create a podcast to highlight how traveler behavior had changed post-pandemic, and now we realize that it is very far in the rearview mirror. But many of those developments how travelers changed their traveler behavior are still very relevant and meaningful today. And I'll give you a few examples. The companies like Fever, who is going to be on season six. They really established themselves during the pandemic running these immersive experiences, and if you're not familiar with Fever, I'm sure in your city you have seen any number of the events that they've been running and it's well worth understanding more about them and what they do. Same with companies like Get your Guide. I think most of our global listeners are very familiar with that OTA, but very focused on in-destination experiences. Civitatis, who is focused on the Spanish market, is part of our season six, and so when you look at what's been happening in the tourism industry, you have seen major developments like the Sphere in Las Vegas is probably one of the most impressive examples of a new in-destination experiences. You've seen the rise of concerts. We've obviously had the Taylor Swift effect, but really, when it comes to the reason that people travel.
Speaker 2:It's often about the activities and the experiences they're going to have in destination. Many of you would have heard from both Douglas Quimby and Bruce Rosar, the co-founders of Arrival, that's Arrival with one R. They literally created an event, business and research company focused on what they refer to as the best part of travel, which is the experiences that you're going to have, the activities. And this is where I wanted to do a deep dive to finish season five, to look at people that are driving these trends and they're actually shaping these in-destination experiences. And that's exactly what you're going to hear from Christian today.
Speaker 2:We're going to have Laura join us for episode two, so we're bringing back one of our most popular guests. Laura is going to join us to tell us the evolving world of Pernod Ricard and the brand home experiences that they are continuing to elevate, and then we're gonna close it off with an absolutely extraordinary conversation with Jake Halpert and Joe Pine from the Transformational Travel Council. Now, joe Pine is a legend in the travel industry, to me and to many other people that have been on our show. He certainly inspired many of us with his book that was written way back in 1999, called the Experience Economy. It's a bestseller and a key business book of the last 25 years. He is now just about to release his latest work, which is called the Transformation Economy and that will be launching later this year. And we're going to be bringing Joe back in season six as well with Jake, because, as you'll hear in the third episode of the In Destination Experiences, this is probably one of the most amazing interviews and episodes we've had for the entire duration of Travel Trends, which for me, is very reassuring because it highlights the progress we've made and the trajectory that we're now on, thanks to all of our listeners, all of our guests and, of course, all the sponsors that make this whole production possible.
Speaker 2:Now, when you look at the world of In-destination experiences and I've been highlighting at the introduction to each of these themes just how significant the industry size is, and obviously that's important to entrepreneurs, it's important for people working in distribution, product sales and marketing to understand the opportunity when you actually look at in-destination experiences, we're talking about a $1.1 to $1.3 trillion industry, according to a report done by McKinsey last year. So not just $2 billion, not just $200 billion, but we're talking a trillion dollar business and this is where we're going to clearly have to continue on this topic going forward, because we're only just going to be able to highlight a few important elements within the in-destination experiences, but it certainly will give all of our listeners a much greater understanding, even to our producer, zach, who edited this first episode with Christian and sent me a note to say I love this interview. I had no idea companies like this existed, and so if I can continue to amaze Zach, then obviously we're on the right track. Now, just before I introduce Christian, I just wanted to recognize the team at Pernod Ricard for kindly sponsoring this series. For any of you that are not familiar with Pernod Ricard, they are the world leader in premium international spirits and their whole brand mission is around this concept of conviviality, which doesn't have a great translation word in English, but it's that spirit of community friendship and when you raise a glass and a toast to friends, that's really the experience of a conviviality which you will experience anytime you visit any one of their brand homes in more than 35 destinations on four continents. For more information, check out perno-ricardcom. We'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. Now I'd like to introduce our special guest for this very first episode of our In Destination Experiences Christian Latchell. Now he is the Chief Creative Officer at BRC Imagination Arts and he has had that role for over 20 years like two decades. This guy has been leading projects from strategy and design through production and opening day as you'll hear many examples in our interview but he specializes in experiential design, tourism, sustainability, revenue operations and project delivery. But his whole focus is creative storytelling and he's won many awards for his work. They've been at museums, cultural institutions, entertainment attractions, global pavilions and they have entertained tens of thousands of people from around the world, and his whole focus is about deepening customer loyalty and building emotional connections. So here we go, christian. Welcome to Travel Trends. It's so great to have you here.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's so great to be here and thank you, dan, for having me join the session here. I've been looking forward to it. I've been a big fan of the podcast and I feel honored to be included today.
Speaker 2:That's very kind of you and thank you so much for certainly making the time. I know what a huge fan Laura Cilio-Pivat, who works at Pernod Ricard, that obviously we both know. Obviously, she thinks the world of you. We've had a few great conversations leading up to this. I understand why, and I'm sure our listeners will as we get into this conversation, because you, of course, are kicking off this series of in-destination experiences in partnership with Pernod Ricard and, interestingly, of course, you've done a number of projects with Pernod Ricard. So I would actually like to start, though, with your background, because I found it so fascinating myself when we caught up previously, and I'm sure our listeners will as well. So tell us a little bit about how you got into this space and a little bit of background on yourself, christian.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think when you're in this industry of working in, experiential and bringing destinations and places of life, it's a culmination of all the things that you, that you do in your, in in your, in your career, and the journey it takes to get there. Um, I don't think anybody I've ever met. It's been a straight line. Oh, this is what I was going to do. I think now there are programs, you know, there's actually universities that have programs around this, but that didn't exist back in the day and, um, so, for for myself, I started off I was always really creative and always into like experiences. I remember, even as a kid, like playing a lot of Dungeons and Dragons and and like watching Star Wars, and I was in that. I was that 70s, late 70s kid that loved all that stuff and I had an aunt who worked for TSR, which was the the Dungeons and Dragons sort of you know they, they, they distributed the game back in the day, and I had an aunt who worked for TSR, which was the Dungeons and Dragons sort of you know, they distributed the game back in the day and I think it was all around world building, right, like when I think back on that, you know, star Wars had such a deep meaning back in. You know, just thinking about the world that was built, the mythology around that, the characters, the stories, the adventures, the sequels, which were just really visually rich and interesting. And then Dungeons and Dragons. You had to play all the characters and because I was an artist, I would draw all the characters, I would create all these worlds and you'd build the whole. You know what the dungeon was and how you described the story and how this world was coming to life. And if you fast forward, many years later, I ended up.
Speaker 1:I was in the Navy for a little while and then when I got out of the service, I went back to Chicago, where I'm originally from, and I worked in marketing and I got back into that creative flow kind of learning from people, and I met some great mentors and they said you got to go to this great school in California and I had been in California for the Navy and I was like, okay, I want to get back to Southern California because these winters in Chicago were a little too much back, and so I came to ArtCenter and that's where I really got into narrative storytelling and figuring out. This whole world existed around not just filmmaking but that combined filmmaking and gaming and theater and storytelling, and all these worlds coming together in this world of experiential design and production and deep stories. So that's how I got started.
Speaker 1:I had great teachers that, for example, created Myst, one of the first agency-driven games, where you got to choose your direction, solving problems, working with the teams who were creating Animal Kingdom for Walt Disney Imagineering, and then finally getting an opportunity to work with the Universal Creative team that was doing Islands of Adventure and getting a chance to actually come into that world, get a peek in and to do these projects. And that's what launched my career getting into experiential storytelling, narrative design, all of that and it's been an amazing world and it's only gotten more tools and better all along the way. I'm so excited about what we get to do every day here at BRC.
Speaker 2:Well, that's fantastic and I think certainly the context of that really resonated with me, the fact you went back to school and you went to the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena and then it was just like the stars aligned for you. And then you took on this role at BRC Imagination Arts, where you're obviously people who heard from the introduction you know you're the chief creative officer, but you've been there for over 25 years and you've been involved in so many fascinating projects. So but in terms of going from then, you know the education back into the commercial world and BRC specifically, I think probably it's worth letting our listeners in on what BRC stands for and a little background on the company and then we'll dive into some of the projects. But yeah, tell us a little bit about BRC Imagination Arts, how the company came about and what it is you guys do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I didn't know that these companies existed. Yeah, so I didn't know that these companies existed. I thought there were only these large companies like Walt Disney, imagineering and Dusk for Light and Magic and all the universal creative. And then there was this company that called and it was actually a friend of mine, marie, who worked at Imagineering but had joined this company BRC Imagination Arts. I'm like, well, what is that? She said it's Bob Rogers Company, brc Imagination Arts. I'm like, well, what is that? She said it's Bob Rogers Company, but he doesn't call it Bob Rogers Company anymore, he calls it BRC, because it's all about this collective of really fun, interesting people. You know people with backgrounds in theater and technical design and magicians and writers, and you know screenplay. You know like media directors and editors and and designers, and I'm like, okay, this sounds pretty fascinating and super interesting. So I ended up getting a role at BRC right out of school and I've been here for 27 years. But what makes it really interesting is we are a strategic design and production agency and our company has been around for a long time, for over 40.
Speaker 1:We're celebrating our 45th year and we were actually spun out many years ago out of Epcot, which was kind of this permanent World's Fair concept in Orlando, and Bob Rogers, who are who's our founder and who's still here and you know we work with him every single day. He's amazing kind of legend in the industry. He was doing some work for the impressions of france film and that's still playing at apcot today. It is still playing, um, every single day. It's got to get in its book of world record for like the longest standing like movie in a single theater like in the history of the world, right, and so still playing. And out of that work they kind of fired bob and rehired him to work on uh Motors, what they were working with Disney on the World of Motion, which was this pavilion that was going to be at Epcot, which was around this brand story that General Motors wanted to tell and what Disney wanted to do was do that in an entertaining but educational way. And BRC was brought in to create a series of shows and experiences which was essentially like a permanent World's Fair pavilion. And then out of that we started working on World's Fairs in 86. And for Vancouver we had the top three pavilions at the Expo and then it just kind of snowballed from there into working in culture and brands, and so I would say our world really came out of Epcot.
Speaker 1:It's a brand, it's a combination of brand storytelling. You know deep, you know kind of deep stories, with brands bringing their narrative to life, cultural projects coming out of, like the impressions of France, and all that's going to open on April 13th in Osaka, japan. So we're still in that world, we're still doing these things, and at the center of all of it is the heart of the audience and we have a sort of vision statement at the entrance of when you come into our studio. You know that in every project that we work on and we create, we strive to bring out the best in people right and bring people together, and that's our ethos, is really around the centering on our audiences and the guests and the people that we can create these meaningful experiences for. And hopefully, whatever the objectives are will vary project by project, but in the end of the day we try to leave the world a little bit better place by awakening to the best in people.
Speaker 2:I appreciate giving us that context, especially the background on BRC Imagination Arts, because, as you highlighted, when at one point you didn't know companies that existed and I certainly had a limited understanding that there's these types of agencies I mean, clearly you see these incredible experiences come to life and there are agencies like yourself that actually are the ones that are driving it. The other thing that stood out to me just in some of the comments you shared obviously Dungeons and Dragons stood out to me and the connection between creating transformative experiences that I think many people today, post-pandemic, had seen. You know the Stranger Things experience as an example, right. So Stranger Things, of course, the Netflix show, where Dungeons and Dragons plays a major role, and I was very much an 80s kid so I'm very familiar with Dungeons and Dragons. But during the pandemic, of course, and when I was in LA, I did one of those Stranger Things experiences and which is brought together by Fever and their partnership with Netflix, right, and they started creating these immersive experiences.
Speaker 2:Everyone started hearing about immersive experiences in the middle and towards the end of the pandemic, but you were onto this for two decades before, and so that's what I found fascinating. And when you look at the list of projects or the companies you've been working with. It is so impressive and extensive, and so I want to share with our listeners some of these examples. But maybe, before we do, let's just actually try and clarify the terminology and the way you look at it, because I would actually love if you wouldn't mind defining how you see transformative travel experiences and what distinguishes that from what otherwise would just be a typical travel experience. So tell us, I guess, a little bit more, when your whole focus is on creating transformative travel experiences. You've been doing it for, as you said, 27 years, but 25 plus years Tell us a little bit about how you would define what that experience is. What are you guys essentially setting out to do with these partners?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it comes down to what we often like to say is looking deep inside the heart of an audience, right, whatever that audience is. We know that there are amazing places all around the world that have incredible stories to unlock. And when we think about what it means to be transformative, it means that visitors coming into or guests coming into an experience, whatever that happens to be, whether it's physical, digital, combination of those things that they come out in some way transformed, and that transformation we call it 8A prime. So we think about an audience coming into an experience, going through whatever that happens to be, whether that's 30 minutes, 60 minutes, a whole day, a couple of days at like a resort or something, and coming out of it changed in some way, and that change is really what drives all of the work that we do. And that change could be a shift in attitude. For added, they had an attitudinal shift towards something where they thought they didn't like something and all of a sudden, you know what actually do like that. Um, a shift in in, in, in attitude, a shift in approach. Like they may not like. For example, like sometimes we work in whiskey and say, I know, I don't like whiskey and all of a sudden you know they have a negative approach response, but then when they come out, that response has changed. We're like you know what I actually really like? That I enjoyed that cocktail. I didn't know I liked whiskey. So it's a shift in attitude and approach.
Speaker 1:Sometimes it's an action we want somebody to do something as a result of an experience that we're creating, whether that's a purchase, journey, right. As a result, they buy something or they take a memento home. Sometimes it's an applause, it's just purely an amazing memory that we're trying to create. It's just one of those things that's going to be a core. You know, something that just was so unique, so special. Only in that moment where we're we're crafting something that again people go wow, that was just incredible. You have to go do x, right, and sometimes it's.
Speaker 1:It's about that, that shift in advocacy, right. We're building lifelong loyal, loyal fans and advocates for for a brand like, let's say, jam jameson right, where we, after coming through this experience, not only if they were already a fan, they're're even more in love, but say, for example, they weren't coming out of it. Now they're like I love that brand Cause not only do I know the brand now, but I actually know the people and the story behind it. So we really think of transformation, at least in our world.
Speaker 1:There's lots of different transformations that can happen in your life. You know you can have an accident something like that happened in my life where it changed my trajectory. But there's other things that as we craft these experiences, we build these amazing places in these journeys, that you do them with an intention, that there is actually an objective of transformation within that. And that's how we look at these projects, and every one of our projects has that, whether it's a museum, where it's around a subject, or it's a brand and it's around the brand narrative and the story, or it's something around a global idea that's happening at a major, major global event. So that's the way we think about transformation, but it is very intentional and it has to be designed with that in mind from the very beginning.
Speaker 2:Well, I think this is where it's fascinating for me to speak to someone like you that has this background and expertise, because I shared the one example with a Stranger Things type experience brought to life by companies like Fever, and they do a whole wide range of events with this whole immersive experience. And another company that I'm familiar with, and I'm sure you are as well, is Meow. I've been to a couple of their venues, like the one in Vegas, the Mega Mart. What I would love to understand from your vantage point because, again, not only are you ahead of the curve on this, but you've also launched a number of initiatives I would like to understand how it comes about. That's my Canadian out and about. Understand how it comes about. So, I guess the and that's my Canadian out in a boot. How does this come about? How do you actually create, like, what is the process, I guess, of designing a transformative travel experience and I know it's not always travel, but in many cases of us, what we're thinking about is the in-destination travel experiences people are having. But how do you identify, I guess, the emotions or the outcomes Really interesting? You just gave it a great example of like whiskey. Someone didn't like that before and I for sure have had experiences where all of a sudden, once you get the context and an appreciation, you see the ingredients and you start to understand how something is actually made and the process and all of a sudden, your taste buds will respond differently to it because you've elevated your thinking and approach. We'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:Tell us how that all comes about when you're actually designing a transformative experience working with a client. Take us Dublin, for example, with Jameson Amazing brand, incredible story. John Jameson, real person. Some people don't even know Is it just a brand, whether they're from Canada or from the United States or from visiting from India or wherever in the world they're coming from. Dublin's a quite international city.
Speaker 1:So we always start with the audience. Who are they? Where are they coming from? What are their desires? What are their hopes and dreams? What are they thinking about If they've got three days out in Dublin? What are they going to do? What's on their to-do list?
Speaker 1:So we always have to respect the audience. So we always start with that first and foremost, and we do that in a variety of different ways. Obviously, there's different insights, groups we work with who can get us that information. We work with the travel and tourism boards to understand the audiences. When are they coming? Understand a little bit more about you know the makeup, also, kind of look forward. You know where you are today, but where is Dublin going in the future? You know how are they expanding the airport? What are the new routes that they're thinking about? Who are the future audiences that are coming right, and also we get under the hood and we start to meet with people right, and we love to do interviews and start to get not just questionnaires but really start to understand real lovers of a brand or people who are coming and really dig into that sort of incredible audience insight. So the first thing, first and foremost, is understanding that audience and by understanding the audience you can get inside their heart and inside their head as well, but mainly the heart, because what we're looking for as storytellers and deep storytellers is on the emotion. So we're looking to see where that is. Second part of it is we start with the brand. We look at the brand and whether that's a museum, we look at the subject that we're trying to tell. But in the world of, let's say, for example, jameson, we're looking at the heart of the brand. So that takes, again, an equal amount of deep research and listening. So what we do in that is we do a lot of what we call insight.
Speaker 1:You know, again, immersion into the brand Like, really the thing about immersion, right, is. The best example of that is to when you jump into a pool. You're completely immersed and every sense of your body is transformed because you're in a new world. Right, it's wet, it could be cold, it could be warm, but you're immersed in something. For us, we really need to get immersed into a brand and that means that we spend the time with everybody, from marketing to leadership to innovation and the archive teams. I can tell you, like on Jameson, working with Carol Quinn, who's the archivist for Irish Distillers, going down to Cork, spending time and learning the stories and going, ok, who are these people? Who is John Jameson?
Speaker 1:Where did this whole thing start? What was the sort of trajectory of the brand? What's the history behind it? What's the history behind it? Even though we're going to use history primarily as a fuel for the future, it's important to know where we come from in order to build a future dynamic right, a future connection to modern audiences.
Speaker 1:But we try to look for these hooks and through that work of finding the heart of the, the audience, in the heart of the brand, then you bring the two together and you find out where do they overlap, what are people looking for and their hopes and desires and what in the brand aligns with that and their objectives, and then trying to find a place where those things come together and that starts to create a sort of a place where you can start to develop a theme. You know, because a theme is in the world of storytelling. A theme is that, the world of storytelling. A theme is that central core idea. You may not ever say it, it's not a marketing slogan, but it's the deep, like the deep central idea that connects everything together.
Speaker 1:And then finding the way to create the right experiences, or, you know, a variety of experiences over time, that then you can give the audience what they're looking for, give them something that not only what they're looking for, but even exceeding that, right Going. Okay, they're all looking for this when they come to Dublin, but if we do this and that and we think about this thing, we're going to give them an experience they never thought about before, beyond their wildest dreams. Right, if they're a real Jameson aficionado and lover, then they're going to have the best Jameson experience ever. So that's where we start. We always start with that deep listening, that deep immersion, the insights, work, all of that. And then from there we craft that theme statement and we find those key objectives and that's where we start to develop our stories.
Speaker 1:And story always comes out of those things and never before. So that's how we get into the process and then from there it becomes whether it's this type of journey or that kind of experience or what they're looking for. It's going to vary by people place and in in what we're doing, depending on, again, the location. I hope that answered the beginning of how it begins, but obviously there's a lot of work to get to something that's open and then really resonates with audiences. But that's where we start and that's probably the most important foundational work you can do, because if you don't build your house with a strong foundation, it won't hold up, as we all know. It's just over time it will weaken and it will fall apart. So you've got to have that strong foundation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the other thing I wanted to ask you just on this approach, because you know, when you some of the companies you mentioned certainly Disney obviously being a great example, but companies like Pixar, which obviously became Disney, but the team that were going on that journey to create obviously became Disney, but the team that were going on that journey to create these incredible animated films, there is obviously a very defined art to storytelling and, as started by Shakespeare, in terms of the acts and where you are in the story as the plot thickens and ultimately as a resolution.
Speaker 2:And I guess, when I think so, I guess I'm somewhat familiar with that approach to storytelling, certainly in presentations, but when it comes to an immersive experience, what I'm curious to know is how much of the defined formula is something that you already have that you execute against, meaning that you kind of have a very clear path to developing a transformative experience where you know it needs to achieve these three or four elements, and how much of that is in customized, based on the brand.
Speaker 2:I'll give you the one example like with Meow Wolf, the whole idea, as I understand it, is to be self-directed and have agency over your environment, so that you are, you know you're. Basically it's a choose your own adventure type experience where you're uncovering this world, and that's, it seems, what's resonated with a lot of people, that that that go to their venues. So yeah, so I guess my question I'm just genuinely keen to know this, I hope our audience as well is like when you're developing any of these projects. And then I want to walk through a couple of examples with you and let's let's definitely do Jameson, but I guess I'm trying to understand how much of it is the formula that you have that you guys know that works and again, you don't have to reveal all the secrets here but like how much of it is like kind of a process that you know that works and is effective, and then how much of that is customized on behalf of the brand and telling their story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's again another great question, and I think what people sometimes confuse, let's start, is that this is a very different format and a very different medium than, let's say, filmmaking or writing a novel or even creating a video game or even a piece of theater. It kind of binds all of those things so you can't use the same rules. I think a lot of people sort of go to those worlds and pull from them, but we've actually Bob, our founder, is actually working on a new book and now be coming out. Regarding this sort of unique format of storytelling, what's always true is respecting the audience, respecting the place and respecting the story that you have. Whether it's a new story that you're building from scratch, like the Chuan, which we can talk about another project we did with Pernod Ricard in China or a story like Jameson, which has a 200-year history that you're building from and you're respecting, there is no set formula other than we need to define the audience and we need to define what the change in that audience will be. That is for sure the roadmap for understanding how to create transformation, exactly who that audience is, the context of it, the actual story and the objectives are completely different project to project there is no two that I've ever worked on that there's that are the same because they in order to respect the audience, the audiences aren't the same, nor is the place, and nor is the objectives. Often they're very, very, very different. So we don't we don't kind of come from that perspective of there is a formula set and that's it, of come from that perspective of there is a formula set and that's it. With that being said, what we have seen um, an increasing amount of and we'll go back to the meow wolf example is that we have seen a greater influence on the world of gaming and agency, you know, angentic sort of approach to projects. Right, and I think that's important because we have the tools now which we really didn't have. Well, we always had them in some way, but we have better tools today to be able to give people more agency in what they're doing and give them an opportunity to, you know, have an experience before they arrive, have an amazing experience in real life and then extend that experience after. So there's all kinds of new things with digital and physical, that allow us to do a variety of additional, you know, experiences beyond just what's done in the venue, and I think that's super interesting and we are doing that. We're.
Speaker 1:It's sort of something that certain people in the industry we talk about story living versus storytelling, and storytelling is very much a one-way conversation. Right, we're going to tell you a story, let's go to the theater, let's experience it. Of course, you're mirror neurons and all those things are happening. You're feeling the story. You know it's scary. You're feeling stuff and it's very it is still interactive, but in a much more passive way, whereas today, in our experiences, we're really thinking about all of those things combined the theater, the filmmaking, the storytelling, the immersive environments, the sets that you can walk through, the digital overlay of that, or even just the ability for you to feel and smell and touch and engage all those things that we get to use in our toolbox. That allows us to do a lot more and give the audiences different choices, different options, things that they can choose to do or not do, and that's exciting. I mean, the world is amazing in that way now, and I think you could see that in the success of, let's say, meow Wolf in Las Vegas. You know, and I think that you know, that's just, hands over, just a really great experience. You talked a lot about the Netflix team. A lot of you know some of that team is their alumni at BRC they come out of. You know we've worked together for years and years and years together, which are amazing, and love that whole team over there and they're doing incredible work. So I mean we are, we're at this amazing place in the world of crafting experiences, but as we craft them, we are being very respectful to the audience and giving them the things that they want, and they do want a sense of purpose and a role to play. They are a character in this environment, not just a viewer of it, and I think that has been one of the biggest shifts that we've seen and we know when we do that, it's great.
Speaker 1:And the second piece I'd say to that is that it's also not a one size fits all. As we get into a project like Jameson we could talk about that we realize that there's audiences within audiences and even in a place like Dublin, not a there's not a one size fits all. Right, there's a lot of people coming with different agendas. That could be time, you know, and we have to respect their time. So there's a lot of things around travel that are different, sort of levers that we have to be very respectful of, because at the end of the day, if we don't respect the audience and their time and what they're giving to us, then it never works right. We're going to have something where the project's not going to be successful and do the things that we hope it does. So I hope that answered the question. But it really is a whole world of story living, not just storytelling, but it's still deep story. It still happens in here, in the heart of the audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, I'm keen to hear specifically how that does come to life with Jamison. I know a couple of team members I've not had the privilege to actually visit. However, I have a number of friends who have that have told me it's amazing, and I also know how successful that venue like obviously it's won a ton of awards. I know it's available to be booked on all like the big OTAs on Viator and Get your Guide and it's like it's a landmark destination. It's a reason to travel to Dublin.
Speaker 2:Obviously, there's many reasons to go to Ireland, but it's specifically a reason why people they build it in Even obviously, my background, of course, is in the tour space and I know a lot of touring brands that have literally built this destination, built this into their trip portfolios because their guests want to go there.
Speaker 2:So this is a cool experience for me to speak to the person who's behind all of that. So I mean, I just thought I'd share that context for our listeners, even though I haven't had the chance to go, but I think many of our listeners likely have. But since we have the privilege now of actually asking the mastermind behind how this call came together, walk us through the experience at Jameson. I mean, I know what I've read, I know what I've heard and I see like you've got the blindfolds on and like this different sensory experience and like you're like working like a, like a magician, in the lab with mixing things together, so like it's interactive. But yeah, so yeah, walk us through what the experience is like on bow street with Jameson and maybe just add a few little details as you, as as you share that about how that came about, the way it did or why it's as successful as it has, I guess ultimately.
Speaker 1:Well, it's, it's ireland, so let's just start there.
Speaker 1:I mean, I mean it's one of my favorite places in the world to work and to visit and we've been very fortunate to work in dublin on some other really outstanding attractions. You know we were able to work, uh, with the storehouse for a little while on what they were doing, but um, but the but the thing is, uh that you know, with Guinness, but the the. The key thing here, um with with Jameson, was this is an incredible brand, um, uh, this would have been back probably about 2015 when we started working on this project, and it was one of those. When it came, when it came in the doors like they're, they're looking. You know they called us and they said we're looking to redo our Jameson experience in Dublin. Some of us had been there and had taken some photos of it years ago. It was very much a museum. It had mannequins in it and all kinds of very, very traditional approach. We were fortunate enough to get into the shortlist and get accepted. You know we won the bid and then, once we started working with the Jameson team, it was unbelievable, and I want to start by saying these projects only happen because of great partnerships and great clients. I mean, at the end of the day, we, of course, are serving an audience which are theameson fans around the world who just love this brand. But ultimately, like the team that you work with matters and and we had an incredible team not only at jameson but also partners with, with pranay rickard, which were, they, really believed in the power of experiences. They understood how important they were to be direct with their audiences on a day-to-day basis because they had seen with Jameson out in the market, all these activations, whether they were in Chicago and they were doing something or they were doing an activation in Singapore.
Speaker 1:This brand was really starting to gain momentum as an Irish whiskey brand. It was really starting to lead the way of bringing the Irish whiskey category back into the spotlight. You know, there was obviously scotch and American bourbon and American whiskey and whiskeys from all over the world, but there was something special about Jameson and what we realized early on, and what they had realized as well, was that there was a misalignment between the experience in Dublin, where it was very much a museum and you could walk through it, but it wasn't. It didn't fit the brand. The brand team had actually evolved Jameson into this very, I'd say, contemporary, very, um, accessible but also very like fun, exciting brand. Um, you know lots of really cool activations and you'd come to Dublin and it just was just the opposite. It kind of felt old and kind of like you know, just felt like a little bit of the older man's whiskey experience and not quite Jameson. So that's where we started, like let's get under the hood of this brand and really understand it.
Speaker 1:And what we found was just this compelling, momentum building brand that was just really on fire all over the world and was just selling more and more cases and you know, every single year. And we said we're better off you guys are better off closing this honestly than keeping it open if you're not going to redo it, because the brand damage that you can have is that you know the mindset of I went to this great activation in Boston and then I come here and this isn't Jameson. So we had to get that in alignment. So we started really figuring that out. Who are those audiences, Just like we talked about, went to the archives, went to Carroll, got excited about the real history of Jameson, finding out what is it about Smithfield in Dublin, what is it about this place in Dublin? That's incredible. Who are the people behind the story. Of course there's John Jameson and of course, his sons, and then there's this incredible history of different distillers and makers and blenders along the history of this brand Incredible stories, and what we also found is that fans really like Jameson was really loved. It was like it was on people you know, people had tattoos of it Like there was like true brand love around this thing. So that allowed us to sort of say you know what? We need to reinvent this? We need to really think of this in a different way. One they were a little stagnant on how many visitors they could attract because they had limitations on the size. So we said, okay, let's just sort of clean slate. If we could do anything, what would we do? Let's be able to serve more people. So we doubled the amount of tours immediately.
Speaker 1:In the concept, we always knew we wanted to have one great experience for those entry like not entry level but the audiences who may not know the story of Jameson or why it's in Dublin and what is it about this great brand. So we had one experience the Bow Street experience. That was going to be that entry to intermediate level experience where you were going to get the heart of the story and that really followed. You know, when we think about things, we think about process. It really followed the line of a bit of the history of Jameson learning about the process of making Jameson. Of course, the proof is always in the taste. So that first that liquid to lips moment, glass in hand, they were serving in plastic. We're like, you know, that's not Jameson. Jameson needs to be glass in hand. You know, we got to get this liquid to lips. This has got to be the perfect moment. So we really choreographed that experience so that people could have that sort of grounding, right, that wonderful experience. And we knew we wanted to respect people's time because they're trying to do more stuff. So we made sure that experience wasn't too long. So that was one part of it.
Speaker 1:But we also realized right from the beginning that we wanted to flip the script. Oftentimes with experiences, especially whiskey experiences, before we did Bow Street, it was like you had your booking, you got on your tour, you did your tour, you're done. We wanted to say no, one of us I think it was John Carroll, who's one of our, you know, and Claire Tolan and Paula Reynolds, the people that we worked with on a day-to-day basis on this project. We said we want people to walk in and we want them to come into the greatest Jameson bar in the world. The bar was a star, so right when you walk through the door, we've got these double bars. It actually uses a lot of the historic elements of the actual original distillery.
Speaker 1:This is actually where Jameson was made in Dublin. This is the real hallowed ground and we were able to create a bar that today, like I could tell you back when we started the project in 2015, we were in there on a January, like a January, like mid January, you know, after the holiday season, and you know you could have, like you, you could have shot a cannon there, not hit anybody. I mean, it was just like there was nobody in there. I was there, uh, this year around the same time. It was packed. It was absolutely packed, like there were people at every single seat, every single booth. People are jamming, they're going on tours. It just was a completely different thing. So we wanted to put conviviality at the heart. That's Pernod Ricard. It's about bringing people together. So what brings people together around a drink is this amazing bar space, and not just one bar, but two right and not only a bar but a space where we could do Bow Street sessions, we could do live performances and all during the St St Paddy's Day Festival this last, you know, last couple of weeks. I mean they were jamming with bands and all kinds of live performance, all things kind of all these things we imagine.
Speaker 1:Right from the beginning we wanted to be alive, wanted to not feel like something that was a museum, but a space you felt like really just excited to come into. And then, in addition to that, we reconfigured everything in this space to like think about where retail would go. We knew that we had people who really wanted to understand Jameson cocktails. So we built an incredible cocktail space. We do a great cocktail class. It's, you know, the footprint of that, like just the foundation of that is fantastic. They built and they've changed little things over time, but it was always this incredible space that it could transform. We have a great blenders experience again that people love to kind of come in and learn about blending, because Jameson is this incredible blend and has some incredible, you know, whiskeys and we wanted to make sure that that was in there and we could talk about that piece.
Speaker 1:We wanted to bring warehouse, like maturation, back into the heart of Dublin, and we did that through having this amazing warehouse space, which is a real working warehouse, and being able to do tastings, and we even have like little private spaces in rooms where we could do whiskeys and chocolates or specialty. You know, look at the entire Irish range of Irish distillers. People could try Red Breast, they could try other things in addition to Jameson. So it was really, when you think about it, this experiential platform that was grounded in one theme, right of bringing the hospitality of Jameson to life in a physical way and then giving people lots of different options that they can enjoy. If they just had 20 minutes and wanted to come in for the best Irish coffee in the city, they can do it, but if they had a little bit more time, they can go on a tour. If they had a little bit more time, they could take a wonderful class and go on a great journey with us, and all those things are available. So you have again choice. You have agency, even within those things, to do your own thing, try things, you know, be with a friend, and we always had the heart of just bringing people together at the heart of all of that and there's no place like Dublin that brings that sort of great Irish storytelling and great Irish hospitality into one place.
Speaker 1:And Jameson Bow Street is that. It really embodies all of those values and principles and that's why I think it's done so well and it's obviously been a success. And, yeah, it's one of the world's leading distillery experience five times in a row, I mean. So that just tells you the kind of kind of love and joy that people have around it. And it's still. It's still. We've had weddings, we've had all kinds of stuff happen there and I just, I just love, I just love it. It's, it's a great, it's a great project. But it shows if you, if you do respect the audience and you tell that story of people, place, process and you do it with a sense of purpose and heart, really great things can happen.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you've convinced me. Obviously I was already keen to go and having this conversation with you. My wife's family is all Irish Catholic and my father-in-law certainly likes Irish whiskey and Jamestown is the drink of choice. So that's how I got introduced to the brand and I didn't know that I liked whiskey, but I discovered that I actually like Irish whiskey. That was my big discovery and I didn't realize the difference between the different types of whiskeys. But what I was going to say is that you know, I've been to the Guinness Storehouse and some of the other projects that you've worked on, but not Jameson.
Speaker 2:I guess the one thing I just wanted to ask you, just as a bit of a follow-up question on Jameson specifically, because in all measures of success whether it's awards or engagement and the number of people that pass through each year the thing I just want to ask you as far as measure of success, when I think about an experience like that, obviously there's many great accomplishments, which is likely increasing to more people becoming familiar with the brand. So obviously brand awareness is one success metric. But the part that always really intrigues me about this concept with brand homes is that when you take someone that is, let's say, a Jameson fan already and you give them an opportunity to come and visit and you essentially have someone that becomes that much more of a lifetime advocate for the brand by virtue of having had the experience and understanding the story and like you give them. But there's obviously people that come into this this is more to your point about people that didn't even realize what they were about to experience and they come out as a big fan of the brand just by virtue of the experience that they've had. And I guess I'm just I'm genuinely curious I guess this is kind of a personal, professional question Like when you think of the measures of success and getting back to your point about a transformative travel experience, like what is the impact you want to have had on someone?
Speaker 2:I know the business metrics, like people you know they purchase tickets, they may purchase more spirits and like. So there's like a direct cause and effect of the commercial benefit. Curious when you think you know yourself, when you see it packed like that and you see people's response is the joy in part, of giving the existing fans an amazing experience. Is it the number of people that you're bringing over that are all of a sudden that are kind of converted. What is it for you that really is that measure of success? That you can kind of step back and look at it and go, yeah, I'm really proud of what we accomplished there kind of step back and look at it and go yeah, I'm really proud of what we accomplished there.
Speaker 1:You know, for me it's and, I would imagine, a lot of people who work in this space at the end of the day, we don't do these things for ourselves.
Speaker 1:We don't even necessarily do them, I would imagine, even for the brands in some way. Yeah, there's that commercial perspective, but my favorite part of a project is watching a project open and seeing the guests' smiles, seeing the response they're is like experiential, like at least at BRC. If we really say that we're in our, in our mission and our value statement of saying we're here to awaken the bat, like to create experiences that are memorable and bring more joy and more, you know, purpose to the world, but also create, awaken the best in all of us, then, for for us, the ultimate test there is how did the audience feel about it and did they come away experiencing the things we were hoping, and even more so? So that, to me, is the most important thing. You know, I was just looking up, you know, like even from this weekend, you know, five star thing on TripAdvisor, just like feedback from Jameson around, just, you know, this couple that went and they just Emily, you know, was patient, like the way that they talk about the people they met. They didn't just meet a bottle, right. They met Emily at Jameson Bow Street, right, they met a person that gave them a sort of memory that they'll remember. That gave them a sort of memory that they'll remember. Not only that, but they met somebody from Ireland who gave them that Irish hospitality and storytelling and experience in Dublin. That is something that they're not going to forget. This may be the only time they've ever go to Dublin, right, their family, like you said, your wife's family's from Ireland and I have a lot of friends in Chicago that I grew up with that you know they have Irish roots. They may only go to Dublin one time. So we have a responsibility to create experiences that when somebody comes, they feel great. They just walk away feeling wonderful about everything, why they were in our care, at least at these brand homes, that we completely took care of them from the moment they walked through the door to the moment we said goodbye, and if they had a great experience, then that's a halo effect for everybody. It means that they had a great time in Dublin, which is great for tourism overall.
Speaker 1:People are traveling, they want to come and go. You know Ireland is such a great place, dublin's a wonderful place. You got to go. It's great for Irish tourism, you know, just in general, that word of mouth that spreads and it's also just great for the community because, you know, as things are more challenged with over-tourism and other things that we're dealing with as an industry, we also have to be respectful that we are creating really great experiences that don't feel too rushed or too short or whatever it happens to be, and that people are walking away, visitors are coming away with these memories that are really these love marks that they have. And if we do that, then as a travel industry and brand homes being one element of this then we are really delivering, not just for that commercial aspect for Jameson, but we're delivering for Dublin, the city, and we're delivering for Irish tourism in general as a whole, because it matters.
Speaker 1:And when you have bad experiences and people don't do things with craft and care and they do them cheaply and they just try to go for I don't know, we all been through those things where you go well, that was a jip or that didn't. What was that all about? I think it's negative, it creates a negative effect and I think if we respect the audience, respect the brands and they're truly Irish brands in this case with Jameson then we're respecting everybody in a way to bring, lift everybody up and give a great experience. And so that's where my sense of this comes from, and I hope that that's what we're doing and we're getting those smiles and we're creating incredible memories for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting because obviously everything then flows from that. Right, if that's the spirit that you're coming from and that it comes, you know it's almost very sincere, it's pure, it's coming from a good place and it's like that. That's the transformative effect you want to have on someone, and the measure of success for you is looking at a TripAdvisor review and feeling that sense of you know, pride, validation, that it's just like, yes, that's exactly the connection that we wanted to make. It's interesting to hear that. That's why I wanted to ask you, because obviously it's. You know, that's um, there's many other measures, but ultimately that's what motivated you, but it leads to all those other outcomes and and um, I guess, christian, I'm keen.
Speaker 2:I know you have so many other projects. I want to ask about one other one, but I actually want to give you the opportunity because so I totally understand uh, the uh, the brand home experiences and you, obviously you work with a number of brand homes, with Pernod Ricard and like with Scotland and there's like there's many great examples, but there's also you work in sports. I mean, I'm a huge baseball fan. I know you work with the Milwaukee Brewers. You work with, like, the Oakland Raiders. You created the tour for the Oakland Raiders. You work in music. You know the.
Speaker 1:Grand Ole.
Speaker 2:Opry, and it's like you work in, you know, with Ford, you work with NASA, like it's just like so, and that's where I guess I guess how well-rounded when you're trying to design these different experiences. I wanted to give you an opportunity to share another great example because, again, like you have a way to bring it to life that is that much more profound than you know. Certainly, reading about it on a website, but also even for someone who's actually been or based on this conversation, is going to plan to go. They're going to go with a new lens on it because they got a chance to hear from Christian. So I guess I would actually like to give you the opportunity to highlight what is one of the other projects that you've worked on with BRC to deliver with a client. That is one of the that it really stands out to you that you're just like. This was something that we really knocked out of the park.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there's there's a few that are upcoming too, that we're really excited about. We're. We're always excited about the next, the next thing Well, we had a. We had some opportunities to work in in spaces that are a little bit a little bit, you know, kind of hybrids, you know. I'll give you two examples, but I'll focus on one. You know, so we've been in the process of sort of reimagining the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in Cleveland, ohio, for a long time. In fact, we've been on this journey with them for almost 12 years. We're now in phase four of that, which is a large expansion, first major expansion in 25 years, and so we're really excited about what's coming up on that one to the whole spirit and attitude of rock and roll, in a way that rock and roll can move and connect us in ways, and really that spirit of youth and rebellion and sort of youth culture that's so embedded in that. And that's a great example of where you could take something that was sort of could be seen as something from the past but you make it contemporary. Another example of that which is the one I want to talk to, that I feel really good about professionally in my own career was.
Speaker 1:We've been working together with the Henry Ford Museum of American Innovation for over 20 years and this is something that when I first started in the industry, or was one of the first clients I started to work with, and we've been ongoing and have worked with each other on numerous projects, but there was one project in particular that came about around Ford's centennial and it was a project that is actually it's a weird, it's not a weird, it's a really interesting partnership in a sense that we were going to create a factory tour for Ford, but it was going to be in conjunction with and in relationship with the museum, the Henry Ford Museum of American Innovation, which is not really funded by Ford. In fact, we did a Racing in America exhibit and General Motors was the main sponsor for that. So I think sometimes people get confused that it's like the Ford Motor Company Museum and it's not at all. But the museum is one of the top museums in the United States. It has an incredible collection and what we were able to do there is to create one of the top factory tours in the United States, and we've done it with reimagining the Rouge, which was Bill Ford's vision to not abandon this site but to turn it into a model of 21st century manufacturing. So that project completely changed my perspective.
Speaker 1:As a designer, I got a chance to work with Bill McDonough and his partners, who created an incredibly new, sustainable vision for what the factory would be. Taking this very industrial site that was really had a lot of chemicals and a lot of really negative things that had happened over time, and reconverting it through remediation and other techniques and green roofs and soils, bringing nature back to create this incredible factory and as a model of what's possible in any industrial situation. And then to take that master project and then bring together like that, with a purpose-built experience around how innovation works right and how this particular site was sort of the beginning of, you know, a lot of things that happened in terms of whether it was unions or future of work or the way that you can look at 21st century manufacturing and sustainable in different ways and using energy in a different way. That project, honestly, was something that really transformed the way that we think about projects in general at BRC. It allows us to think about things with a different sense of purpose and to show that there's a new model for how we can work and what we can do into the future and we've actually updated the project twice, reinventing itself for the innovation that is happening on a day-to-day basis in manufacturing and in the future of these brands, and what they're working on. And give kids an access, give them opportunities to see this stuff in a way they've never done.
Speaker 1:And we created one show, for example, when we redid the tour. We created this experience where it was like just the innovation of manufacturing. It was this show that had actual working robots that we pulled from the factory. They weren't even designed to ever do what we wanted them to do. When we met with the robotic specialists, they're like you want it to do what? No, believe us, it's a character in the story, it'll be fine. We basically print this you know F-150 in front of you and we bring it to life and we tell the story of innovation. And we've had school groups in there and you know the kids are all like on their phones doing this and then they just put them away Because as soon as the thing starts to activate and become this amazing immersive storytelling environment where there's robots and there's projection and there's magic tricks coming out of every corner, people just they put it all away and even the teachers are like, how did you do that?
Speaker 1:Because these kids don't pay attention to anything. They usually walk out screaming and clapping and then they want to go on a tour and do everything else. It's an amazing experience to watch. I think it's really again that responsibility of thinking about how can we kind of bring these stories to life in new ways, show that there is these incredible ways in which manufacturing is changing and that there are still people at the heart of everything that we're doing and we do it in a way that gets kids excited and adults excited. And whether you like trucks, you don't like trucks, it doesn't matter. People just love it. They absolutely love the experience. So, anyway, that's just one example of a completely different project and again, that relationship between the museum and the brand is super interesting.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. If we take, I guess, a broader view of what's happening here, because it seems like you've been in this space for many years this space, however, has just really continued to take off in, say, the last five years. We're having this conversation, of course, in 2025. And since the pandemic, it seems like there's more, and where people are today in their travel interests. And what do you think is, I guess, driving this?
Speaker 2:I'm going to make this, if it's all right with you, christian, kind of a two-part question, just to give you the floor, because you mentioned phones and technology, and that's actually where I was going to go next.
Speaker 2:But what I'd love to know from your vantage point, given that there is such a cultural, societal and even just really understanding how you make the human connection, which needs to be, if anything, contemporary, relevant to our times, um, and also have a meaningful impact. So, as you're thinking that all through working on these projects, like now that this industry and, um, this whole idea of immersive in destination experiences is really coming to the forefront, I guess I'd love to understand what do you think is driving that? Because you've obviously seen that develop and you're seeing new clients come to you with different projects. So what do you think is driving that? And then, where do you see the role of technology within that, to either enhance the experience or offer remote experiences? When do you decide that technology plays a role and when do you realize that actually it's part of people's desire to disconnect and get out into the real world and experience it for themselves?
Speaker 1:Yes, it's great.
Speaker 2:So why don't we?
Speaker 1:we'll do it and it will do it in both of those. That that order. It's really. It's really interesting because I was just at South by Southwest and we were talking about this with a bunch of different experienced leaders and you know all in experiential design and storytelling and I think you know the pandemic, you know that whole thing did a lot to a lot of us. Like I just think we have almost like a global sort of PTSD around it. But one of the things I think is true, that was one of the accelerators of that was two things at once and two things can be true at the same time. One, it did accelerate our antisocial reality, and this device is two things.
Speaker 1:While we call it social networks, it's created a lot of fragmentation, more than we've ever seen, and it's created a lot of loneliness and we have a world where a lot of people are generally lonely and antisocial and there's plenty of articles about this around that, about this around that, and I think that that's something that we all need to be very conscious of and sort of figure out our role in which we play into that or not play into that. Setting all that aside, I think the antidote to that being the antisocial situation is that we saw people realizing how important it was to come together, and there are places where people no matter you know, I don't want to get into politics, nobody does but it's like there are places where we can still come together and all be one group, all cheering our team, whether that's a sport venue or we're going to a concert and we're seeing, you know, metallica play at SoFi Stadium, Like we're all, like all Metallica fans and which I am and I think that you know there's something about real life experiences that allow us to bring that conviviality going back. I love that word that Pernod uses, because I really believe it is the ability for us to come together and connect us, believe it is the ability for us to come together and connect us, and I think music does that, sports does that, and experiences like Meow Wolf and experiences that we create. Where you've got this great review? I was just reading about people being in a cocktail class with you know, 14 other strangers, you know, and there are a couple who came in and they met all these people and they went out for dinner afterward. You know, where does that happen? Well, it happens in the spaces that we create, and I think there is this pent-up desire and this need for us to be, in some ways, the antidote to that, like the ability for us to create real experiences, bring people together, have shared experience. Sometimes they're individual as well, but for the most part, a lot of the stuff that we do tends to be with groups of people and people having a great time when they're out on holiday and they're visiting places. So I think that that's one part of it, and I do think what we've seen and why I believe these things are really kind of while we're seeing more of them, really kind of while we're seeing more of them, is, I think that there we're, we're all feeling the need for connection and for joy and to be able to play. I mean, there's a real sort of sense of playfulness with all the stuff that we do. Um, you know, that's that world of gaming, but it's allowing us to like play with cocktails and be in a safe space and not really worry whether we got the measure right or wrong. You know, it's just, it's close enough and that's great, because you're learning and you're learning through play, and we, our best teachers were people who always made the subject really fun and entertaining, and they weren't the ones who, like, gave you the effort on the exam. So it's, it's.
Speaker 1:I think that there's a sense of that, that we're looking for places where we can connect, where we can play, we can enjoy and we can be together or be in the places that we want. The role that technology plays in that is a double-edged sword, right. I mean, you know, in one way it's creating this antisocial situation globally, where we're scrolling and not really ever in the same place. I mean, we like to say you know, you're in with, on the couch with your family, but nobody's with each other, right, because everybody's on the phone and they're watching, half watching TV and half watching the phone, and, and, and they're on the they're talking to somebody else, right, and it's just like nobody's with each other. So so, while this has been an amazing tool for that information, it's also been kind of one of the things that's caused this kind of riff that we need to be mindful of. From a technology side, though, we all know that we don't go, just show up at a place like Dublin without a hotel booked and without your tours, figured out.
Speaker 1:I mean, nobody does that anymore and I think you know that was another thing that came out of, you know, the pandemic and COVID was the acceleration of people adopting these sort of ways to use technology to plan, to figure out what other people are thinking about, what they enjoyed. People do a lot of online research, you know, and they're kind of looking at all the different things that they can do and where they want to go. And so people, you know, we do have this experience where we're enticing people to our projects well ahead of them ever getting there in real life. You know, we're using that technology to say hey, if you're coming to Dublin, spend some time with us at Jameson, we'd love to see you. Here's what's going on. Here's what's on. Here's how you could pre-book, let's get you ready for your journey. Hey, you're going to be arriving tomorrow. Hey, we're really excited. Here's your class. Here's all the information. You know. Follow up. You know. Hey, you enjoyed it. You know what I mean. I mean there's all the things that technology allows us to allow people to pre-book, get involved, do all kinds of things with sales and metrics and all that stuff, and then also stay connected, which, for a brand, is really important because we're building a relationship. So all that stuff is wonderful.
Speaker 1:The other role that we're seeing with tech is, you know, we can personalize things a lot more than we used to, and we do that to some extent. We worked on a project in Scotland where we do a lot of personalization around whiskey and people get you know, it's lots of different combinations of experiences and people get to enjoy the whiskey that they want in any way. They want it, and you know. So allowing for that personalization is great, you know, it's wonderful, but we don't want to do it in a way that takes a group of five friends and turns them into five individuals. We still would want to have a great day out.
Speaker 1:You know, if I'm there with my friends that I've known since I was 10, we're on a trip through Ireland. We want to be together. Since I was 10. We're on a trip through Ireland. We want to be together, and I think that that's the thing that, as experienced designers and storytellers, we need to constantly be reminding ourselves of is what is the role that we play in this? To try to at least create the environments and the places that allow those things to happen, where technology can be there, but it can also be put away. Once we get into an experience, boom, we're done. We're seeing that. I mean, I'm sure you're seeing it, dan, in the work that you're you know, the different trends that you're you know seeing on the show and talking to others. It's definitely something that we're seeing as well and if we do the experience right, honestly, other than taking a snap of their cocktail they made, they usually don't have it in their hand.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, because they're too busy having fun and experiencing things together, so I don't know.
Speaker 1:I hope I answered the question.
Speaker 2:Yeah, very much so. No, it was quite enlightening, I think, the fact you were at South by Southwest. I had seen that you were there and it's one of the things I was actually very keen to ask you about. I'm a huge fan of South by. I've been a number of times and obviously it's great for brand activations. It's where some of these technology brands got their start, like Twitter, along with 4X, so it's a successful place to launch brands. There's a lot of pop-ups like immersive experiences.
Speaker 2:I remember my first time at South by walking up by a, a restaurant that obviously was just literally created for the event.
Speaker 2:Cnn had a diner and like that, and that was always one of the cool things about South by.
Speaker 2:So you've got leading edge creative talent that are there executing, and then you've also got leading edge creative talent attending speaking, like yourself, and so I did want to get your take on the topic of trends and to just better understand what you're seeing, where you think we're going in the next three to five years, because clearly you've got long-term projects. You shared the one about the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, so I'm sure you've got longer-term projects. You have a clear view on this and you can see what clients are asking for, based on what they think are going to be the experiences of tomorrow. So I'd love to get your take on that and I just have a few other questions that I'm keen to ask you, but I certainly want to get your take on. What are the trends you're paying attention to specifically in the travel sector to try and cultivate these meaningful connections and the effective storytelling? What are some of the things you're paying attention to that might be interest to our audience?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's quite a few things. I mean, you know one, the obvious one is AI and what that's doing, both in terms of how we develop projects, but how we also can personalize things. We, you know, like I said, we've already been working with that for some time, some time, and I think we're going to continue to see an evolution of that in terms of being able to, you know, to personalize things in a way that we haven't seen or we're beginning to see. And, again, I think the only caution there is in the service of creating something that's meaningful and powerful with audiences and doesn't lose the heart. So I think we all have a responsibility to think about that.
Speaker 1:I think we started this conversation with the idea of agency and the ability for experience to be less one-way and more two-way. In fact, that's the way we talked about it at Jameson and that goes back quite a few years, almost a decade ago. But we said from the beginning we want this to be much more of a two-way conversation. But even more than that, I think there's a sense of being people looking for play and joy, and I think when we do that in the right way, we give people the permission, we create the structure of the place, where that feels free to do without feeling judged, then what you know, that's where you get the things like team lab in tokyo that's really popular, or things that we're working on in the space and, and I think that they just allow for people to just kind of kind of be themselves and let loose a little bit. And I think we're going to see more, not just not just play for play's sake, you know, not just a photo op for a and I think we're going to see more, not just not just play for play sake, you know, not just a photo op for a photo op. I think we're kind of beyond some of that. But I think when we think about like real purpose or interesting purpose-driven experiences, or we think about how we could sort of give people opportunities to explore a world, I think we're going to see a lot more of that. I think we're going to see a lot more of that sort of not just one-way but two-way or even participatory experiences. That's only going to grow. I think we're going to start to see a lot more.
Speaker 1:You know, in addition to that, I would say, you know, we have only begun to really use all of our senses. You know we talk about the five senses but really we have 20 to 30 senses that are actually what we sort of use and we have in our bodies and sort of doing full body experiences that really kind of hit all of those senses is something that we as a I think as an industry are really now at the point where we understand that and can go deeper and give people, whether it's auditory or even something like I think we're seeing a lot in wellness. You know there's so much going on where our industry is now moving into wellness and the merging of those two things coming together in some really interesting ways. I saw at South by Southwest one of the co-founders of Meow Wolf talking about the work that they're doing in this space and it's a completely different concept from what's out there currently and that was really interesting. So I think you're going to start to see that find its way into wellness and so forth. Yeah, and I think those are like some of the trends that we're seeing.
Speaker 1:And I think agility, you know, I think the days where you had one size fits all and you, you know there was only a singular experience or not thinking about, change Like I think about, like the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, or I think about the change in audiences, even in the world of, like Jameson, how often it has changed since we built it and thinking of these places as platforms that allow you to ebb and flow, make the adjustments at a, you know, not at the crazy investment you do the CapEx, but you find a way in which you can be more agile and more responsive to what's happening with markets and, you know, in audiences. I think that agility is going to be super important and you got to bring audiences where they're at. I mean, with rock and roll hall of fame, I love muddy waters. I mean I grew up in chicago, I am a huge blues fan, I love foundational, like what the roots of rock and roll. Right, I love gospel. You know all of it.
Speaker 1:My daughter doesn't know, doesn't even know who I mean. She does kind of know Muddy Waters because we, but she doesn't know Big Mama Thornton and Muddy Waters. But she knows, you know Tyler the Crater and she knows Kendrick Lamar and she has a great understanding of some of the. We got to meet our audiences where they are and then we could take them on incredible journeys. So, I think respecting the audience and understanding that we can't have it just the way we used to, we need to be thinking about, sort of again it goes back to that deep understanding of who the audience is and respecting them and taking them on a journey that not only fulfills their desires and dreams but exceeds them. And I think if we do that, then we're, then we're really, you know, we're really doing the work that we're supposed to be doing in this world.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I guess what stands out to me from what you've shared there is that, like there's there's lots, there's a bright future in this space and there's lots to look forward to, and I think that, certainly for yourself, one of the things I want to get your guidance on is for those people looking to come up in this space and that can learn from these examples. And then I want to make sure we leave everyone with a bit more about where BRC Imagination Arts is headed. You mentioned you've got quite a few other projects coming up, but the two of the things I wanted to ask you, christian, while we have this time together, is that if you take everything we've discussed so far and clearly, given your extensive experience, and you think specifically about the travel industry, is you think specifically about the travel industry? One of the things I've found frustrating in certain aspects of travel is that there often isn't a lot of innovation, especially on product development. Like you look at certain touring brands, you look at certain businesses and it's like if it works, you just keep running it, and then you have other companies like I give the exact example for many of our listeners WeRoad I'm a huge advocate for WeRoad. Weroad I'm a huge advocate for WeRoad. Weroad is, like you know, an Italian-based company that came out of nowhere and is, you know, all of a sudden doing $100 million in sales. And some of our listeners know that I, you know I'm pretty bullish and think it'll be one of the fastest travel brands to reach a billion dollars in sales, and I think it's because they're doing some of the things that you mentioned about really understanding the audience and really connecting to the sense of community and giving people really fantastic, meaningful experiences, and they become raving fans.
Speaker 2:So I see companies like that that are really getting it right, and I'm sure there's many brands that then look at them and think what are we doing or why did we miss this opportunity? So now that we've got someone like you, with your level of expertise, thinking about travel because you've worked a lot in that space what would be some of the advice that you might share, just one or two pieces of advice that you would provide to someone in the travel industry to encourage better innovation, more deeper, meaningful customer experiences? You absolutely hit it on the head with your comment about the loneliness epidemic. James Thornton from Intrepid talks a lot about that and it's certainly a reason that people are taking group travel over independent travel because there's a lot of solo travelers, a lot of solo female travelers, and they're looking for that connection and community.
Speaker 2:So I see a strong correlation between the work that you're doing with in-destination experiences with travel companies that are being successful. But I just wanted to give you the opportunity to share what you think would be your advice to those travel brands that are looking at this going wow, this is super cool. Where do I start? Like, what is it that I should be doing better, differently, to be more innovative and to have more meaningful customer experiences?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, boy, there's so much there. I think that one of the things to think about, Boy, there's so much there. I think that one of the things to think about. Sometimes we have bias, right, I think, you know we all do to some extent, I would imagine, and I think that's true with even, like, travel brands who are pretty set Like we know what we do, we know we do this. Well, that's great, but I think that there's room for innovation, you know, and having an innovation mindset is really important.
Speaker 1:Um, I'll give an example. Um, you know, if, if, if jameson had kept the way, they were right in terms of this kind of kind of older irish drink, they wouldn't have the, the incredible fans that they have from around the world. And I think by embracing kind of a more contemporary view, not losing what you did, but sort of fueling your future from your past in some meaningful way, you can open yourself up to a lot more audiences. I see, oftentimes there's a lot of sort of well, you know they wouldn't like this, well, why wouldn't they like this?
Speaker 1:I mean, we've got an experience in Scotland that we've worked on, where it's a. It's a whiskey brand, but but guess what Everyone said? Oh well, women don't go to whiskey experiences. They don't do it historically, or they a very small percentage. That project indexes over 50% women under the age of 35.
Speaker 1:So what's the sort of perception? I mean? If you limit yourself in thinking that way, then of course you're manifesting the reality that you already assume. But what if, what if you can think of things in a different way? I would say that there's a lot of.
Speaker 1:I've had to learn this in my own sort of journey. I think is to sort of not put your own personal bias on it and try to find a way to look beyond yourself and really look at your audiences and also look for audiences that you may not serve. Now that can give you an opportunity to do a whole new range of business and opportunities and innovations you haven't thought about, and I think you got to leave yourself open to that. Because the world, I can tell you I've been doing this for 28 years and it has changed so much and I'm excited about the future. I am optimistic about the future.
Speaker 1:I look at the audiences that are coming up that are going to have like want to travel and see the world. There are audiences that are already there that you can work. I just think that there's a lot of sometimes there could be too much around what we think people do. I encourage you to get deeper into the insights, look beyond just the obvious and go deeper, and I think you're going to find some things that that you weren't expecting, and that's what has led to some breakthroughs we've had been fortunate to have in the work that we've done is that we look beyond the veneer, the surface, and we really get in under the under the hood or you know deeper, and I'll tell you that's where there's some magic, and often there's opportunity there that people haven't seen. So I encourage you to do that.
Speaker 2:Those are great, great pieces of advice. And the one last tip given your success and the span of time you've been in this industry, obviously you've developed a lot of wisdom over those years. So, for those listeners out there and this is Christian I think you know how this show certainly started and what I'm always mindful of whenever I have the opportunity to interview someone like yourself, and I always think about myself listening to podcasts and learning from other individuals and always thinking if one day I'm ever in the position to ask that person a question. Here I am having a chance to interview you now. The thing I would love for you to be able to share with our listeners is that any advice from your perspective, from your journey, that you think would be meaningful for someone who is aspiring to either come up in the immersive travel space or even someone working in the travel industry, as you're kindly giving some suggestions to make their work more meaningful. But really, what advice you might give someone that's in the earlier stages of their career as they look to advance.
Speaker 2:And I think one of the things maybe, um, I think one of the things that a skill that you certainly have, that is, I believe, certainly quite rare, um is, you know, that real strong creative talent, and so and some people will say, either you have it or you don't I've heard the expression before where someone's referred to someone else and I don't care for this, I would never use this, but I have heard it they don't have a creative bone in their body, and I've heard that spoken about marketers that just for whatever reason, someone just doesn't think they have what it takes, and maybe they've missed, maybe it's they weren't briefed properly, maybe they, you know.
Speaker 2:So I always want to give people more than enough chance to prove themselves. So so that's, I guess, why I'm framing it that way because you have this unique skillset, and when I see pictures of you on the website and how you've built this, you know how this company has been built over the time that you've been there it's quite amazing that the number of things you've been involved in so and I know you speak on stage I know people are like gravitate to you, and so I mean this is where I've got the opportunity. So I really want to ask you this question, christian, like what advice would you give to the listeners out there that would, you know, want to be as successful as someone like you one day.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it starts with that idea of just being endlessly curious. You're a lifelong learner, if you, and I know that, even in the early part of your career, because I teach I've taught at Art Center, I've taught different places and I always say, like, the key thing if you want to be successful here is to not pigeonhole yourself into one thing. But you know, really this is truly a Renaissance sort of um, the sort of that, the idea of that Renaissance person or somebody who's like I think IDEO described as like a T, you know, somebody who's got like a strong foundation but they're very interested in lots of things. I think to be successful in this industry you have to be that Like you can have a strong root in something. But I would say you know narrative storytelling and illustration and design and all of those things right, and how you tell stories.
Speaker 1:But what's really allowed me and, I think, others at BRC to really excel is that, you know, when I first started in the industry, I got to work with Harrison Buzz Price, who was the economic advisor to Walt Disney, and Buzz was the person who told him where to put Disneyland. And then eventually, hey, you should buy this property down in Orlando when Orlando wasn't even a thing, and listening to Buzz talk about the economics of attractions in the travel and tourism industry was an unbelievable masterclass in understanding how these projects financially work. What is the feasibility? I was just as interested in the numbers as I am in the design, and the same thing on storytelling. I didn't go to school for filmmaking but Bob was a filmmaker, our founder, and he taught us how to create films and to direct and to think about that and that's wonderful. Again, it's not that everyone has that kind of person next to you, but you can. You should get really wide and all these things because I think if you can learn from economics to design and storytelling and and delivery and operations, I've learned so much from incredible hospitality leaders. I mean, whether it's sitting down and having a conversation with the training team at the Ritz-Carlton or it's working with wonderful people like Laura and others who really understand their business and how hospitality is everything.
Speaker 1:How you treat people like this industry is not one thing. It is a combination of connected things that all influence each other and that's why our symbol of BRC is a triangle. A triangle is like the strongest form in engineering, but it's a combination of business acumen and financial understanding, great sort of hospitality and operations, and understanding that. And then the base of it is that wonderful deep storytelling and design that we have that connects both of those worlds. And I think that that is like, in order to really do this is to is to get routed. I mean, I remember it during COVID, I went back to school and was taking classes at Wharton because I wanted to know about data and analytics, you know, and it wasn't because I was a great at math, but I knew that it sometimes go after the thing that you're most afraid of and I tell you, it opens you up and it actually keeps you, like, really engaged.
Speaker 1:So I would say it's great to go deep on something and have that sort of strong pillar, but it's also equally important to go wide and get to know as much about this industry as you possibly can. Ask every question you can, and don't be afraid to ask it.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. That's all great advice, christian, and I'm sure that's resonating with a lot of our listeners, even with me. I mean, obviously, intellectual curiosity is paramount. I always look for that in a new hire. You know, there's that Google view of hiring someone that you would like to have a conversation with at a layover in an airport, and clearly those are people and there's a lot to be said for that, because this is someone that you can actually have a more profound conversation with and therefore you can talk about work you can like, and so I like the fact you point out.
Speaker 2:Well, I just wanted to underscore what you said about going after what you fear and like, because there's this question about just focusing on your strengths, or do you spend time on your weaknesses, and I think there's actually something to be said for the fact that you know recognizing where there's opportunities to develop and grow and where you maybe don't have a strength but doesn't necessarily become a strength, but it can at least be an area that you are, you learn more about so that you are more familiar and like.
Speaker 2:So, anyway, that's really fantastic advice, christian. Clearly, you have so much going on and so much running through your mind. I want to make sure that we finish off by letting everybody know where they can find out about some of the new projects you have coming up that other people might be excited to explore, or some of the things you guys are working on, and also where they can find more information about BRC. I should have mentioned the website at the beginning, but obviously you can mention that now, but there might be other ways for people to follow along on the journey. But yeah, and obviously I'm so thankful you've made time for this, but tell everyone where they can find more information about you and BRC, imagination Arts, and to connect with you and the team. What's coming up next?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I know We'd love to have you follow us and kind of stay in tune. We're pretty active on LinkedIn I think everybody is these days but you can find BRC Imagination Arts on LinkedIn or myself. Please reach out and connect. I'm happy to have those reach outs. It'd be wonderful. We're always on Instagram sharing what we're up to. It's just our other platform that we're out on social. And of course, we have news that hits on some of the major news channels in the industry. We try to stay active on that.
Speaker 1:We have a podcast called Masters of Storytelling. We love this podcast, but if you want to hear about from other storytellers, that's a great platform. You can find that in all the places that good podcasts come from. In addition, we don't want to take away from travel trends, but if you're into storytelling, that's a really good one. And the other thing is wwwbrcwebcom. That tells you where we started in the 80s and we really were. But that's our website and actually we do keep that up to date and we've got a couple of really exciting project openings that will be coming in the next two months, so we'll be sharing those soon.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic, christian. Well, it's been a delightful conversation. This exceeded my expectations. I know why Laura loves you so much, and the team at Pernod Ricard as well. I've thoroughly enjoyed the opportunity to get to know you leading up to this interview that we had the chance to do today, but so I wanted to say thank you so much for making the time, and I certainly will be following all of your developments. I look forward to meeting you in person in the near future at some point, and I'm definitely going to put my list together of each of the venues that I want to check out, and I'm definitely going to Jameson. So, no, thank you for all your guidance, thank you for your advice and, uh, thank you for making the most of this time that we had together.
Speaker 1:So thank you so much, christian. Uh, you're welcome. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it very much, thanks.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on the latest episode of travel trends. I really hope you enjoyed this very first deep dive into the world of in destination experiences sponsored by our friends over at Pernod Ricard. Obviously, christian Latchell is such an impressive individual. I know exactly why Zach said I love this interview and I had no idea companies like this existed. Brc Imagination Arts it's a remarkable company and a journey that he's had with them and some of the projects they're working on I'm sure many of our listeners you've experienced them. You're familiar with them because it is an extraordinary collection and it's amazing to see someone operating at that height of creativity to be able to introduce those new in-destination experiences, with many more to come on a global scale.
Speaker 2:Most popular guests of all time from Pernod Ricard to discuss the latest in their brand home evolution and some of the new developments they have planned for 2026 and beyond. And then we're going to finish this three-part special series with Joe Pine, the legendary author of the Experience Economy, as well as Jake Halpert, who runs the Transformational Travel Council. So an amazing three-part series to look forward to. Make sure you are subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice to be notified when new episodes go live and, of course, we post clips and highlights on all our social channels YouTube, linkedin and Instagram if you want to see clips of any of these guests, including Christian, from today. And then don't forget, we have launched our AI Summit for October 28th and 29th Early. We have launched our AI summit for October 28th and 29th Early.
Speaker 2:Bird tickets are still available and we are working away on season six of Travel Trends already, even though we're going to take a brief break during July and into August when we put out a few event spotlights and startup spotlights, and then we'll be back in September with season six. And if you have any suggestions for us with guests or topics you want us to cover, feel free to send me an email. Dan at travel trends podcast, thanks again for joining us for today's conversation and we look forward to having you next week for our interview with Laura from Pernod Ricard. Thanks again and safe travels.
