Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Event Spotlight: Educational Travel Consortium (ETC) Conference 2025
This spotlight episode takes you behind the scenes of the Educational Travel Consortium (ETC) 2025 Conference in Mobile, Alabama.
Since its inception in 1987, ETC has cultivated a unique and thriving community of U.S. college alumni programs, nonprofits, travel planners, and industry suppliers. Together, this network manages billions in travel spending, united by a common goal—to create travel experiences that inspire meaningful change and lifelong memories.
Founded by the visionary Mara DelliPriscoli, ETC has set the standard for collaboration and innovation in the travel industry.
This year’s conference brought together extraordinary voices, including Susan Black of Wowzitude, who is redefining virtual travel, and Alan Merschen, who introduced us to the enriching concept of the “dim sum life.” Industry leaders from organizations like National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions, Journey Mexico, Adventure Canada, Tourism Winnipeg shared their expertise on the art of meaningful travel. Additionally, PHD Academic Michael Luongo took us on a deep-dive into travel in conflict zones, and Jim Friedlander gave us unique insights into ultra-luxury private tours.
A special highlight? Our host, Dan, delivered a keynote on the groundbreaking role of AI in travel, an address that is now available on the Travel Trends Podcast YouTube channel for anyone who missed the live presentation.
We’re thrilled to have been part of such an impactful gathering and are excited to have been invited to return next year! To all of our esteemed guests, the ETC Team and especially to Mara DelliPriscoli, who built this remarkable community from the ground up, thank you for making this gathering so extraordinary.
For those passionate about shaping the future of travel and creating transformational journeys, this is the episode for you. Don’t miss it!
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Travel is not something that you give up. It is actually not a want, it is a need for most people. The question is how much are they able to do physically, legally, you know, monetarily, you know, but people don't give up travel.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to a special event spotlight of Travel Trends. This is your host, Dan Christian, and today we're going to be looking at the Educational Travel Consortium Conference that was hosted in Mobile, alabama, this year in 2025. I had the privilege to attend and give a keynote on AI, which you can find on our YouTube channel at Travel Trends Podcast, but today's focus is on the event itself how it came to be and the incredible people that come together every year for this remarkable conference that I knew very little about before. I had heard about ETC, as it's often referred to, and you're gonna hear today from the founder, mara, who kindly invited me to participate in this year's event, along with a number of my amazing colleagues that participate in this event every year. Ian Kynor is one great example and it's someone that I worked really closely with at the Travel Corporation when I was running Contiki USA. He was an absolute all-star on that team and he's gone on to lead National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions and he's actually part of the advisory team for ETC, so it was so great to catch up with him at the event and you'll hear from Ian in this conversation as well. You'll hear from Susan Black, who runs Wowzitude, which is a fascinating company. I've known Susan for many years. She's been an industry executive. She has so much to offer. She was also doing a session on AI, as you'll hear, but she was another key reason that I went to this event this year.
Speaker 2:You're also going to hear from academics, industry leaders from across the US, with a number of different universities and colleges that come together for this event. So, to give you some context about how ETC came together, it all really leads back to one extraordinary individual and that is the founder, mara, and Mara created this really unique organization way back in 86. She held the very first conference in Washington all those years ago and her focus was really about bringing together the nonprofit travel planners so that they could network, collaborate and share best practices. And she started in the museum space, interestingly enough, but it quickly expanded. And now this group that comes together. There's about 300 individuals that come together for this annual conference and they control billions in travel spend, which is why you have some of the biggest suppliers there as well in what's known as affinity travel. And so today you're going to hear from some of those colleges and those organizations.
Speaker 2:You're also going to hear from Alan Mershon, who came in as one of the extraordinary keynote speakers. He's a big figure in the travel industry. I have a great admiration for Alan. He built up one of the most successful marketing agencies in the travel industry, myriad, which was sold to MMGY, of which he's still a partner and very active in the whole travel and investment space. So you're going to hear from Alan in these conversations.
Speaker 2:You're also going to hear from someone that I had the privilege to get to meet for the very first time and his name is Jim Friedlander and he runs a company called Arrangements Abroad which is based in New York City and they run seven-figure programs for many of the most high-profile people to run exclusive private trips, and these can be celebrities, they can be four-star generals. He does a lot of work with government. These businesses that come together for this annual event was absolutely fascinating and I think you're going to gain a lot of valuable insights from all of these conversations. So I just want to say thank you again to Mara and the team at ETC for bringing me in to give a keynote. I was thrilled to hear that I've been invited back for next year, which is a real thrill as well, and it was wonderful to meet so many incredible people.
Speaker 2:So I hope, as you hear from this cross section of really fascinating individuals that come together for the Educational Travel Consortium Conference every year, you'll consider becoming a member or getting involved.
Speaker 2:And for those of you who are going to be multitasking while you're listening to this, you have to check out educationaltraveltravel that is their main website and when you do, check out the history section and read the remarkable story of Mara and how she created this organization, because she was so far ahead of her time she was literally working on a boat for the first few years, which is now achievable today, but this is long before the internet or having a laptop, and somehow she was able to pull this off.
Speaker 2:And so when you read her story, you realize just how ahead of her time she was, and then you also get an understanding of how closely knit this community is and how much they rely on the relationships that they've established over the course of 10, 20 years, how much they still interact, do business together and refer clients. So it is a really special community and it was a privilege to be a part of it and also to join Mara for the closing session of the conference, and I can't wait to be back next year. So, on that note, let me bring you the event spotlight from Mobile Alabama and all of these extraordinary people that came together for this event, and start off with my good friend Susan Black from Wowzitude. Susan, great to have you on this very special event spotlight. Thanks again for the opportunity to be here. I'm so looking forward to our chat today.
Speaker 3:Oh, dan, thank you so much.
Speaker 2:I'm thrilled to be on the program Well you had a cameo appearance for some of our listeners at the Focusrite Spotlight episode that we did last Christmas, and so I'm thrilled to have you back. And also, beyond this conversation we're going to have now, we're actually going to have Susan on a dedicated episode, so be sure to look out for that, because she's got an amazing story to tell with this project that she's been working on for the last four years WowzaTube. We'll talk a little bit about that now, but let's just start off Susan with ETC and what brings you here, because this is your first year, but I know you've been involved with this organization for a little while. Tell us a little bit about what brings you to ETC and then also give all of our listeners a bit of an overview of Wowzitude and what you do.
Speaker 3:So, dan, this is great and, oh my God, this has been quite an adventure. This lifelong learning conference and that's the operative word. So ETC, of course, educational Travel Consortium really focuses, as we know, on alumni and museum and cultural travel planners and the tour operators that support them. As you know, I've been a tour operator myself, either consulting with or operating as a tour operator for a number of years, and this particular part of the industry, this niche, part of really what we call culturally curious, is just mother's milk to Wowzitude, because that's really why we started this. It's really in depth in many, many different countries, like, for example, wowzitude is now in over 200 different cities with live streaming tours, with licensed guides, storytellers in each of these cities, 160 actually guides under contract, and they are there to really inspire, inspire travel to these culturally rich centers, both well-known ones like London, paris, rome and Hidden Gems. So really tapping into the alumni travel planner market and the museum travel planner market and we have many of them currently as partners is just terrific.
Speaker 2:Well, it's certainly a perfect partnership and when I saw you present yesterday and then came by your booth set up for Wowzitude, it's very clear that this audience is a perfect fit and a match for what you do. So let's make sure that all of our listeners actually know a little bit about Wowzitude and why you're in 200 Cities, so give everyone the background of this really fascinating business and where you guys are at today.
Speaker 3:Well, Dan, we started as a COVID catalyst. As everyone who knows me knows, I've been very involved for my entire career in getting people over to fabulous places all around the world as an outbound tour operator and also as a consultant to enhancing people's experiences. And when COVID hit, we all had a problem. It was lockdown, right. So what were we going to do? Well, we started Wowzitude to really inspire people at that time. Now then, it was really more lifelong learners, not knowing if it would translate into in-person bookings, right.
Speaker 3:But when we did a pilot for a year with Untours, which is the world's first B Corporation, and actually Richard Edwards, who's a CMO there, who I know for many years, inspired me and said I think that this will inspire our 60,000 group to really explore some new places. But let's do a pilot and let's figure it out, to really explore some new places. But let's do a pilot and let's figure it out. So we switched in year three from doing lifelong learners, not knowing that that would inspire in-person bookings. And so that's where we are today. So that's how we've grown, and we found that, whether it's fam trips for travel advisors, whether it's inspiring folks because they want to know more about it, we also have trip kits, which are eight-page in-depth books, movies, recipes, all sorts of things to inspire people about a destination, and what we found is that, yes, this is inspirational.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. So take everyone on the journey of this experience. I mean, obviously we're audio here so we can't share the video, but obviously that is the key to the experience. So tell everyone a bit about what it is to experience a Wowzitude virtual experience, and I guess that was the partnership you mentioned with Untours. I know this came up as a question for yesterday in the session is how, then, that leads to people actually traveling in person as well.
Speaker 3:So we actually don't use the V word. I know virtual because people get confused. Virtual reality there's nothing virtual reality about it. This is a live streaming tour. I always joke with people. I'm like do you see a virtual Super Bowl?
Speaker 4:Oh, you see a live streaming of the.
Speaker 3:Super Bowl on TV. In our case, though, it's completely interactive, which means that we do this at scale, because we work exclusively with organizations and we work B2B. So right now, we're at 300 organizations and we reach close to 2 million potential travelers. Oh my God, in four years.
Speaker 2:That's incredible potential travelers.
Speaker 3:Oh my God, in four years we have roughly between 7,000 and 9,000 people on each of our tours, so think about a walking tour.
Speaker 3:You know the guy who's got his little box and he's walking through the streets, except, instead of having 9,000 people behind him, they are getting it at home and they're looking at it and they're able to ask questions and you know it's quite a visual if you think about it 9,000 people. We joke about that with our guides oftentimes, but we do for each of our guides we do about eight hours of mandatory training. So, even though they're licensed guides and storytellers, we train best practices in the equipment, in talking to people who are engaging at home, and it's quite an interesting experience.
Speaker 2:Well, let's make the connection back to what brings us here, because clearly, as I mentioned and it was certainly the case in your first session seeing you in the international bazaar, I guess is that they refer to it. I know you've got another session coming up tomorrow on AI, which is right after my keynote, which is obviously the big reason I'm here in addition to recording this podcast, but tell us a little bit about how the ETC community will be able to benefit from Wowzitude and the partnerships and where you see the potential with educational travel. I mean, there's a number of things that stand out that are obvious to me and I know you've already highlighted a couple, but tell us some of the other things you're looking forward to benefiting from being here at.
Speaker 3:ETC. Well, you know, it's really interesting and I'm glad you brought up the session yesterday because when Mara, who is the CEO and organizer of this, asked me to speak at that session we live in a very uncertain times, I think is a good way to put it there's a lot of stuff going on in the world and for these alumni museum and cultural travel planners who are planning three years in advance and they have a very discerning group right, so they want cultural experiences, but sometimes that may take them to places that are unfamiliar. In some cases there may be media reports about it. You never know what's going to happen, particularly in the three years, even with a quote-unquote safe place. But there's things that happen fires and ash clouds and all sorts of things. Again, as tour operators, of course, we've always handled that. But a lot of the questions are, especially when you're dealing with affluent travelers who are alumni and they're over the age of 50 or 55, there's the safety issue, there's the comfort issue, there's the group issue.
Speaker 3:What live stream tours do is it gives the authenticity. It often calms uncertain nerves because they can see if they've heard or read that there's a protest, for example, in Mexico City. They're walking right through it and there's the protest behind. It's perfectly safe and there's everybody having coffee and enjoying themselves. So you, you know, sometimes what we read in the media or what we hear, certainly when we have groups going out, is a challenge for planners. And so, when you see it with your own eyes, it's not a b-roll, it's not a website, it's not marketing. It's the real thing, with a real guide that you can ask questions, because it's completely marketing. It's the real thing, with a real guide that you can ask questions, because it's completely interactive.
Speaker 2:It gives peace of mind one of your colleagues who's uh here as well, karen, who works with you on wowsitude. Tell us a little bit about the team that you have not only you've brought together for this event, but some of your plans to expand wowsitude, because clearly you're going from strength to strength.
Speaker 3:Well, thanks, yeah, thanks, yeah, we've grown really quickly. So Karen Brown has joined our team. Actually, she and I worked together 20 years ago. She was chief marketing officer over at Liberty Travel Go-Go, where I was as well, and she was there during the Flight Center years as well, so she has a tremendous background. One of our other founders is Cecilia Dahl, who for many years was over at Colette Vacations and then she started Smart Destinations, which, of course, was sold to GoCity.
Speaker 3:So all of our principals and our amazing advisory board has years and years of experience in travel knows how to put together these great programs. Travel knows how to put together these great programs and, to your point, dan, we have expanded out. We're actually it's a lot of word of mouth and if you haven't heard about Wazitude, now you have but we are getting a lot of traditional tour operators now, especially after the Untours pilot and Richard and I were both in Istanbul at the Society of American Travel Writers speaking there. We got a lot of buzz there and since that time and since we've made really the focus and the switch to travel to promote and inspire and give peace of mind to travelers, we're firmly back in the industry. We started off with again, lifelong learners, especially during COVID, who were not necessarily planning travel and, of course, like many startups, our startup has now evolved into those not necessarily planning travel and, of course, like many startups, our startup has now evolved into those who are planning travel.
Speaker 2:Now that's great. I think one of the things that stood out to me too was specifically their background on tour operators. Obviously I know Richard as well. We crossed over at G Adventures and I highly respect and admire him as a marketer and I like what he's doing at Untour. So it was a great partnership certainly between the two of you, both as leaders in this industry, and two strong brands. But I guess the other thing I would highlight too to your point about tour operators is that there is a massive growing market for group tours. Obviously you know that Some of our listeners certainly know that from my background and when I was just at ITB that group tours are outpacing independent travel and the one category for sure that you're very aware of is solo female traveler.
Speaker 3:Yes.
Speaker 2:And the part that really stood out to me about that, and it was interesting because you also organized a guy named Michael Clinton that came in today, who is an author of a book called Roar, and he gave an outstanding keynote this morning. I think it's going to be the best keynote of the conference no disrespect to Al or what I'm going to do tomorrow of the conference, no disrespect to Al or what I'm going to do tomorrow, but it was a really special keynote. And, yeah, one of the things he highlighted was this whole concept of longevity and he was talking about women 50 plus and how they basically rule the travel world.
Speaker 3:Yeah, well, I'm in that category too, so all good, yes, it was quite eye-opening. The focus is really on the concentration of wealth, quite frankly, and the discretionary time and, as we know, where you know women go, men will follow if it is they're making the choices.
Speaker 3:But nowadays a lot of women want to go either solo or want to go with women groups. As a matter of fact, I just got back from four women in Mexico City and you know we all left our husbands at home, all good, and you know we had a fabulous time, and we're seeing a lot of these mix and match, whether it's solo travel, whether it's women traveling with other groups of women, and then at times couples travel, so it's not just one trip a year. I mean, those days are gone and we want to experience things with people we're close with or on our own and meet new friends in a group setting. So, absolutely small group tours are hot and, again, people want to know what to expect.
Speaker 3:And especially for hidden gem areas, especially for hidden gem areas, you know we also talk a lot about over tourism and we don't want to go to the same places over and over again, but we may not know about Ljubljana, slovenia, and we may not know about Tbilisi in Georgia, and these are fantastic places and when you go and you get inspired by, you get a taste of it. Our tours are one hour long, right interactive. You can find out more and you can discover more. And also in the industry for travel advisors, there's a lot of change over and there is no way that advisors can know 200 different cities or destinations. So think of this as the ultimate fam trip.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting you mentioned those examples because certainly, as there's more of a concern about over-tourism and some of these destinations that people are more familiar with, like venice is a good example, doesn't matter, seems to be how much restriction or additional cost they add, people are still going to venice, but the reality is the experiences you can have in a place like slovenia, albania, colombia, some of these destinations that have perception challenges.
Speaker 2:There's great value to be had. There is far less crowds, but the one challenge people always have and obviously this is something you know is that when they're trying to commit to taking a week holiday, it's not just the cost, it's the value of their time. So if they get a chance to sample it and this is where I cannot believe how many companies moved away from what I thought was a really exciting opportunity Airbnb with virtual experiences and I say you don't use the V word, but we were working with Airbnb during the pandemic, with Contiki and some of the travel corporation brands, and also with Amazon had a brief kind of like and I thought there was so much more potential.
Speaker 2:So I'm excited for you because, for whatever reason, they've decided to focus on other priorities and I think there's a massive untapped opportunity. That clears it, clears the landscape for you.
Speaker 3:Well, funnily enough, they've discovered it in Asia. You know there was an article in November's Focus Wire that $3 billion in in-person tours for Tripcom and Alibaba was being generated by live streaming tours. Oh, my goodness, look it up November. And I just kind of sat back and said and here we go. You know, we were a COVID catalyst, as I mentioned, and we've been seeing this potential. And now we've been in discussions with a number of travel companies, which, of course, is why I'm here back to your original question. At ATC and on our board, as a matter of fact, we have the travel planner for Virginia Tech, we work with their group, we work with the Museum of Jewish Heritage, we work with a number of cultural organizations Some are here, some are new, some are starting with us in addition to traditional tour operators and traditional travel sellers.
Speaker 2:The other thing I wanted to ask you too, susan, since we're both here for the first time. A number of things have stood out to me that are already highlights of being here. Obviously, we've talked about some of the business benefits networking and having a chance to present and bring the awareness for Wowzitude to everyone's attention but given you are someone that's always focused on personal development and learning, what else has stood out to you so far about ETC, either in the destination or the people that you've met? That are, I guess, some of those gems from your experience so far?
Speaker 3:So this is a really unique confab and for my first time here it's kind of like where have you been all my life? Type of thing. First of all, the people who get up and speak.
Speaker 4:this is my 27th year and I'm like, oh my.
Speaker 3:God. And there are long-term sponsors, certainly a lot of destinations, particularly in Canada, manitoba and Winnipeg, and all sorts of ones, very incredible supporters of lifelong learning. And then, of course, there's the planners themselves and the specialist tour operators. They specialize in these groups who knew? Because I'm kind of like, oh, I thought I knew every tour operator. I've been at almost every USTOA since it started with Bob Whitley. So these are some other specialists here.
Speaker 3:So I had an eye-opening time and what I really like is the generosity of people. They are generous, truly generous, in sharing their knowledge, what they found. There's a camaraderie here. Camaraderie here it's big enough to you know, make a difference, and small enough to really network and get to know everybody and get to know their stories. You know there's something great about sitting with you know the Yale travel planner and then now you're talking to you know the Stanford travel planner and then you know maybe a university or college you may not be as familiar with, but their alumni, they're constituents, they're study abroad people. These are curious people, there are peeps, and we love to hear the stories.
Speaker 3:I also like that the conference starts off with something called a learning lab, so I got here a day early to experience it. It had a choice of three different ways to get out into the destination. Oh my God, what a concept a travel conference where they're actually teaching you what it's like when your customers are coming in. So I had the privilege of going to Africatown and learning about the last slave ship Illegal that came here 52 years after the abolishment of slavery. Can you imagine? And get to meet the descendants of those? So for me, this kind of personal learning and knowledge and understanding was so great. And, of course, the civil rights movement and all these things super interesting. And again, you know this entire group. The one thing I would say. There's two words I would say. Number one is connection. Connections are huge, both meeting new people such as myself and I know you're new here as well, dan, it's your first time- here even though we're industry veterans and also a sense of camaraderie.
Speaker 2:People really, really are generous and want to get to know what, then, now meeting the people, is that these 300 plus people are responsible for billions of dollars of travel spend and it is a very tight knit community and, from a number of conversations I had last night, these are people that have been involved for 15 plus years. A lady I was speaking to has been 16 years and she was saying the number of continued outreach she gets from people because she's connected to the community, that it's a friend of a friend of a friend that knows that she's part of ETC and so many people have built their careers or their businesses on the back of this really special conference and community.
Speaker 3:And we've heard so much gratitude, since we're here In every speech, where people are there, it's just this incredible group of people. They have the same challenges, they have the same concerns, they have the same celebration. You know, and they learn from one another because it is a very unique group of people and you know, and of course, you know, as the generations go by, the alumni changes. The ages change what they want to do. Now they're looking for wellness, now they're looking for longevity type of travel, as we learned today. Now they're looking for more adventurous. So even if they skew older, they want new experiences. They're in great shape. You know. If they're 55 plus, it's not your grandfather's 55 plus. So the product itself is now getting a fresh look and everyone's learning from one another what this market is looking for.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's exciting. I'm thrilled that we're here together and thank you so much for the opportunity to be invited, to get to know Mara, to do the keynote and obviously all these things that come about from connection and community which we have. And then here we are together again, which is wonderful.
Speaker 3:Well, dan, the connection with you has always been great. I'll just give a little shout out for those of you who know I always use Dan as my North Star when it comes to digital marketing. It's like what would Dan do? So, as I worked at CIE Tours as Chief Commercial Officer travel impressions all the ones that I've been to, I always looked to Dan. Dan was a frequent guest and a frequent panelist at the Eye for Travel events, at my own event, travelcom, and a number of different ones. Really everything focused, I mean, you name it. The guy has spoken at everything and I used to track you religiously to try to say, well, let's see, if he's doing that, then he must know something. So you have always, always, been an early adopter. I know you've got the keynote coming up about AI and I follow you with a more tactical type of approach, but you have always seen the opportunities and now is no exception.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, susan. I adore you as well, and I think you know the fact that tomorrow we get to deliver the one-two punch myself on the stage and then you doing the workshop right afterwards on AI will be a dynamic combination. Hopefully we can continue to. Let's keep that up. That's our commitment to each other.
Speaker 3:The Dan and Susan show. I like it. Exactly the Dan and Susan show. I like it.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You need to come back and co-host some episodes. I think that would be great as well, but no, thank you, susan. I want to make sure all our listeners know how to connect with you and find out more information about Wowzitude.
Speaker 3:Great, so you can connect with me. You know, old-fashioned Email still works S-Black, S-Black for-U-D-E Wowzitude. It's a combination of wow and gratitude, and if you ask me why, I'll let you know at some other point, but it's sblack at wowzitudecom. Of course, our website is wowzitudecom and at any given time on every social media a little too much maybe, but certainly our LinkedIn and all sorts of places. So I would love to connect with you in all ways.
Speaker 2:Definitely follow Susan on LinkedIn. She's often posting because she's traveling, she's speaking, she has a lot of great updates to share, so I definitely encourage you to check her out there and obviously reach out for various business opportunities. But yeah, she's a terrific person. I'm proud to call you a friend and obviously you're a highly esteemed and respected colleague and it's great to be able to have this time together again, susan. So thank you so much for joining us on Travel Friends.
Speaker 3:Thank you, dan, and, by the way, anybody who's listening to your program or knows people, please come join us complimentary for any tour that you'd like to. We do three or four, oh please. We do three or four live streams a week all over the world. We're happy to do it. Whether it's a destination tour operator, hospitality, airline, it doesn't matter. We would love to have you as the guest of Travel Trends as a thank you to being on your program, and we would love to host you.
Speaker 2:That's a surprising development. This was not pre-planned. I just wanted to catch up with Susan while we were here. But tell our listeners how they might be able to realize there's a promo code? Or do they need to email you? How does that happen?
Speaker 3:All you have to do is drop me an email. Just mention Dan's name or Travel Trends, just that you heard me on the program, and we'll set you up for actually a series of tours. We really want to get the word out and we want you to really experience it for yourself. It's all live. That's incredible, Thank you.
Speaker 2:Susan. That's wonderful, so definitely take advantage of that opportunity. I know several people that would love that, so I'm going to, I'm going to email a few people already after we finish this interview. But, yeah, for everyone listening to this, don't miss that opportunity, because I think you'll see the technology, you'll and you'll just for all of us, everyone listening to this, I mean, this is, uh, you know, the world's largest b2b podcast now, and I think that for each of you to be able to experience this for yourself, it will remind us all why we do what we do and why we love this industry and love travel. So, uh, so, no, thank you again, susan. That's a great opportunity and I look forward to, uh, seeing you tomorrow and keeping in touch can't wait.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much dan.
Speaker 2:I now have the distinct pleasure of sitting down with a big wig in the travel industry and I said this to him last night and a number of people commented the same. But Alan Elliot Marchand is a captain of industry and he is one of the most well-respected and revered figures within the travel industry and as we get into his background and what he's working on, everyone will understand why. The cool thing for me is that I've had a chance to know Alan. For the last decade. He actually his company, myriad Marketing, did a lot of work with the Travel Corporation, so I got a chance to know him. I spent a lot of time in LA, which is where he was based, and so it's a real pleasure and a privilege to finally have you on the Travel Trends Podcast, alan. So thanks for joining us.
Speaker 8:Thank you. It's quite an honor finally have you on the Travel Trends podcast, Alan. So thanks for joining us.
Speaker 2:Thank you, it's quite an honor and I should hire you as my publicist. I think you've got enough people backing you and supporting you, but I'm certainly keen to be one of them because I think, as our listeners will quickly understand, the number of things that you have on the go at the moment. I mean, you divide your time between Cape Town and LA. You've got philanthropic initiatives, nonprofits you're involved in, and one of the when we saw each other last was in Panama.
Speaker 2:You were, you gave and I'm not saying this because you're sitting in front of me, I said it last night in front of other people, as you were there the best presentation at the ATTA conference by far, and Susan said the same. I was just like it was and it was and I know you're speaking here tomorrow, but let's give everyone a little bit of background from your point of view. So why don't you start? If you wouldn't mind, let's go way back for a minute, because I know you've been coming to this event for like 20 years, but tell everyone how you got into tourism in the first place, alan.
Speaker 8:I thought we were going to start way back. I was born at a very early age, so my background, ironically, was first education, so I'm a recovery and academician. I moved from my home in Missouri to California to teach at Mount St Mary's University. I was on the faculty there and a couple other schools for a while and loved academia, but it just didn't pay as much as I wanted it to for business and so I started doing some consulting on the side and slowly that turned into a business and one of the clients happened to be the Outback of Australia. I didn't know what a tourist board was, I didn't know where the Outback was, but I ended up doing a brochure and then becoming their ad agency. So I slowly moonwalked out of teaching and onto the business and grew the business of Myriad where we worked with companies like Travel Corporation, airlines, cruise lines and a lot of international governments. So over the years we worked with about 35 international governments either representing them, pr, social advertising, et cetera, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting to make that connection to the fact that we're here for ETC Educational Travel Consortium and a lot of the groups here are academics or connected to academia and they're running alumni programs. So this, for you, has to feel like coming home each time that you come to this event. But I want to get into Myriad a little bit more detail, because you sold this company to MMGY, which I think for most people in the travel industry know that that is the largest marketing firm. They do marketing, they do PR and they're a global phenomenon. They're owned by private equity, so it was obviously a great opportunity for you, just prior to the pandemic, as I understand too to have sold your company. You clearly would have made it all back on the other side and be sitting here as well with a great story to tell, but nevertheless, the timing was excellent. But tell everyone what it is what you were doing at Myriad for all those years.
Speaker 8:So a lot of stuff we were doing was traditional advertising, creative PR, social, all that stuff. The niche that we really carved out was representing international tourist boards in the united states, so as diverse from qatar to the australian outback, to nicaragua to rwanda. Instead of them having an office in the us, we became their office, did all their sales, marketing, social, pipe, vr, etc. So a little bit of everything and we had a great time. We had offices about 60, 70 people between LA and New York and had a great time and got to represent some incredible destinations around the world. And, as you said, I knew the folks from MMGY and was able to do a deal with the private equity company behind them.
Speaker 2:Yeah Now, it's a great story and obviously a fantastic result for you. But I guess the thing that stood out to me in our conversations and knowing you as I have, is that you never stop so, like the idea that your company was acquired, like you've just been on to one thing after another, and the one thing I wanted to bring up specifically is the Sigmund project, which Sigmund, as I came to understand from our conversations, was your dad's name Correct, and there's a connection here between you and I, and it's obviously. I started this podcast because my dad was diagnosed with cancer and he sadly passed away. That's why I left the travel corporation.
Speaker 2:When I did, I took care of him for six months and I'm so glad that I did and I'll never look back and regret that decision, and especially now that everything has worked out as well as it has with the podcast and there seems to be some connection to me with my dad that I was there for him and all of a sudden now this is really taken off. So most of our listeners know that story, but I really would appreciate if you wouldn't mind sharing your story, if you don't mind, because clearly there's a strong personal connection. Your dad died at a much earlier age. So tell us a little bit about your dad and why you decided to name this new venture and initiative after him.
Speaker 8:So my dad died at 40 and I was eight years old and so I look back and was lucky enough in business and things like that to have somewhat of a quote unquote legacy at least in my mind, and I think he was kind of robbed of having a legacy quote unquote legacy, at least in my mind, and I think he was kind of robbed of having a legacy. So I started this non-for-profit in hopes of respecting him and trying to have a legacy in his name. It's turned out to be a good name because it's memorable and not really used that much. So who knows, we might go into consumer goods one day, but it's all good.
Speaker 2:Well, clearly you have that background in marketing and then there's a strong personal connection and your why is clear. But tell us a bit about what's the Sigmund project and what did you guys do?
Speaker 8:So it's one of many things that I'm doing now, still associated with MMGY and some other some universe. Actually, I'm on the board of trustees of my graduate school too, so I'm still hanging around academia. So one of the things during COVID I reflected and said it's time for me to give back after I had sold my business. How can I do it? And in my career there was a lot of times where people would come up and say, hey, I've got this business idea. What do you think I should do? Maybe I need money, and the majority of times they needed a collaborator. So it wasn't funding, it was trying to find partnerships and things, and I always enjoyed that and found it fulfilling. So I thought I wonder if there's a way I could scale this. I can't do this all on my own, but what if we had an open source platform that we could create, that people with business ideas could post those ideas and get help from people around the world? And so we created the SIGMENT project and the first thing we did was the open source, where now people can do exactly that. And the way the system works is we've had, in about three years, we've had over 100,000 uniques from over 108 countries, so it's truly global. Less than 20% is North American based. And now there's over. We have a database of 10,000 members and over I think it's 260 ideas that are posted on the site. Some are crazy, some are crazy smart.
Speaker 8:I've done, I think, 82 mentor calls. We have a 14 minute mentor call that anybody posts To post. You have to say what the business is, how you're going to make money from the business, but you also have to say that you're dedicated to a triple bottom line of profit planet, people. You have to say which UN sustainability goals to which your company will adhere, et cetera, et cetera. So there are some safeguards there.
Speaker 8:And now we're starting, in the last couple of years, working with universities ironically full circle here again. So we have universities from the Middle East, hong Kong. We just started with the University of Cape Town, where students either create ideas and post it on the site and we have like a little I wouldn't call it a shark tank, it's more like a koi pond and we evaluate the ideas. Or the other side of it, We'll have graduate students or honor students actually go and find some of the businesses that are posted are the ideas, reach out to the entrepreneurs and help them either with research or coding or something else that they need. So it's still. I'm still at that corner of academia and travel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and your new title Venture Catalyst. Venture Catalyst.
Speaker 8:So between the Sigmund Project and some of my other board positions or investments. I think that kind of sums it up quite well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I think that is your new brand identity for sure. Yes, tell us, if you wouldn't mind, one or two projects that stand out to you, that either have flourished or come to life by virtue of their association with the Sigma Project, or that you think have great potential, because clearly, obviously, this is transparent, people are sharing it. So if you wouldn't mind sharing one or two examples, it would be great.
Speaker 8:Wow, there's so many. There's a few. Some of the ones from the students are very good, the students out of the Middle East. It's a woman's Emirati university. They've come up with private tours in Dubai with a driverless Tesla.
Speaker 8:And so there's one person that's real, but they can control five cars at the same time and everything's preset, so it's pretty easy to do. There's one of the things that's come out of what we call the Sigmund verse. There was somebody who posted an idea that she was actually doing sustainable hotels under her criteria in India. Coincidentally, a month later, somebody had the same idea in Australia and within two months, somebody else had the idea, all independent of each other. We put those three women together and now they're working together on those ideas. So there's a lot of them there and I'd suggest anybody go to the sigmundprojectorg, take a look. You can reach out directly to these people and talk to them.
Speaker 8:The other part of the SIGMUND project which we just introduced a few months ago, which might be of interest to some of your listeners, is we now we're offering an rfp service.
Speaker 8:One of the things we realized is that, um, a lot of people love to get the rfps from ngos like the world bank or asia development bank or springfield or mumbai whatever it happens to be um, but it's very hard to find them and it's very hard to read through them and understand them. So we've been using AI to scrape the internet, find them and then use another program of AI to search the actual RFP and find the five most valuable things. So for less than $100, $99, we'll make something special to your listeners. They can go on and get these RFPs sent to their mailbox and so well. As a matter of fact, it's $129. If they say, if they type in Travel Trends 99, they'll get it for $99. Amazing. Here we go on the spot, and where we thought we'd send out 10 to 15 a month from June to the end of the year, we sent out 500. Incredible. So it's a great service for everybody.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. Thank you for extending that offer to all of our listeners. I'm sure you'll have a number of people take you up on that, alan, I guess the other thing I just to ask you, given that you've got such a wide range of interests and so you've got the SIGMN project, which I know obviously people are going to check out You're still involved with MMGUI as well. You mentioned about some of your academic work. What are some of the other things that you're working on that are worth our listeners being aware of? And then I want to bring us back to ETC and what brings us together for this event.
Speaker 8:Sure, so I mean a diverse portfolio, if you will. As you mentioned, I'm MGUI, sigmund Webster University, my alma mater. I'm involved with the ATTA, the Adventure, travel and Trade Association, as a special advisor to their board. I'm partners in a magazine, a digital magazine out of Australia called Get Lost.
Speaker 8:Oh cool, yeah, foodmagazinecom and get some fun ideas. A little side ball is something called Eat to Explore, which are food preparation kits where every month you get a different kit with sauces and spices and recipes but information about destination. So one month you might get the French box, the next month you might get the Ethiopian box, and so on and so forth.
Speaker 7:And that's.
Speaker 8:Eat. Number two, explore from that side, and then some other foundations, everything from, as I mentioned, some universities to something called Zip Zap, which is a social circus out of Cape Town which trains over 3,000 kids from the townships every year and gives them confidence through circus training.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. Well, you certainly represent the ethos of people, planet, profit. I think it's clear when you walk through a room, people gravitate to you, people know who you are, but you also just have this natural way about you. This happened when we were at ATTA, I'm just going to note to your credit, I was actually with Brennan Bliss, who runs Propellic, and he's been one of our big sponsors of our podcast since the very early days and he's generated a lot of business leads off of the podcast, which has been great, great for us, great for him, great partnership.
Speaker 2:But actually introduced you to Brennan and not only did you engage him there, he was like Adam and I'll fly and meet you. And, like you, as I understand, he sent me a couple of messages to be like. Thank you so much for introducing me to Alan. He's amazing, he's just like and so, despite all these things you have going on, I just wanted to highlight that to our listeners, that it was just like. You are a genuinely good person that cares, that means well and that makes time for people, and that's much rarer than I think.
Speaker 8:You're very kind, thank you. I mean, I was just at a high school reunion and somebody said, oh, you've done well, and I said a lot of luck, and they went. No, I mean, you work hard and there is the truth that you know, luck favors the prepared.
Speaker 8:But I will say this and I do know, and we've all been lucky enough to travel and I've been to the favela slums in South America, I've been to the little villages in Asia, I've been to the townships in Africa and I do know a lot of people who are much smarter than me, who work much harder than me. But I got lucky, maybe growing up white speaking English in the Midwest and getting a reasonable education. So I started it with a head start and if we don't give back, then I think we've missed the whole plot and that's what we need to do.
Speaker 2:That's a great spirit, alan, and I guess that's to bring us then to where we are and finding ourselves here together. I mean you give back in a number of ways. You're here back at ETC again. As you mentioned to me before we started recording, you've been coming for 20 years. You come every few years. This year you're giving a keynote I'm following you tomorrow afternoon which I just know what a great speaker you are. Obviously I'm just thrilled to attend your session and I know it will be amazing. But tell everyone what brings you back. Obviously, the speaking event is one thing, but are there meetings, opportunities outside of that, obviously connecting with the community that you're so close to? What else brings you to ETC?
Speaker 8:Well, I mean, I think it's a great format, it's a great niche. If you will, it certainly lets me talk to two worlds which I'm very close to, both academia and travel, and the spirit of the people here is special. They know that they are not only getting people to travel, but they're getting people to become more educated, continuing their education and keeping their minds open, and hopefully that has a strong impact on everybody down the road. And uh, and today we need that open mind more and more. So, uh, the more of these people can get other folks to travel, uh and to places that are maybe not traditional tourist spots, the better off for all of those people, especially the people in the destination who can benefit from it. So it's great to see that and to see the education continue.
Speaker 2:For sure, and this is, as you know, my first time at ETC conference and I'm enjoying it immensely so far, and there's still so much more to come tomorrow. But I guess, for you, having the vantage point of coming to this event a number of times, is there anything that stands out to you so far this year that is different, unique, special? Is there anything that's kind of evolved with the format? Just generally curious that. And even if it is, Alan, it's just like it's exactly the way it needs to be and it's perfect. That's fine as well. But yeah, I'm just keen to know from your vantage point if there's anything that stood out to you so far this year that's been a particular highlight.
Speaker 8:So one of the things I think that's interesting and it goes for travel, but specifically for here the openness of everyone to share the good and the bad, and the ugly, with the theory of all boats rise. So I think that's very important, that you don't always see in other industries that people will say here's the problems we had with this tour, here's the problems we had with these faculty members and what the expectation was, and they're all sharing and learning from each other. So there's a lot of that and that camaraderie, that community spirit, is really helpful. And I see that even more so as times get tougher and there's more pressure on universities than ever before, uh, from making money to re-imagining themselves.
Speaker 8:Um, you know, I think a lot of them were had to go through this process of were they an educational institution or a degree factory, and now that's changing and so they have to reevaluate and reevaluate their relationship with their alums. There's a lot of competition because everybody wants to have everybody as part of their community. Sure, now you're trying to have a relationship where I might not have stepped on the campus for 30 years, but I still want that relationship and I want you to feel like you're part of the community and hopefully travel is a way to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's great.
Speaker 2:I mean, it's obviously it's interesting to get your take on the trends within the alumni community, but just given that we have limited time together and there's so much I want to talk to you about and obviously, clearly we'll have more opportunities in the future and we'll have you back for a special one-off episode as well.
Speaker 2:But what I was going to ask you, though, as we sit here together in 2025, and we think about what's happening around the world geopolitically, but also just some of the consumer trends and consumer behavior so you mentioned something that's quite interesting there about alumni and universities having to reconsider their value proposition, and I listened to Scott Galloway, professor GE. He's fantastic when he talks about some of the universities should be hedge funds. They actually they print degrees and they have so much money in endowments they shouldn't necessarily have the tax-free status that they have. So, anyway, that's a world that obviously you're very familiar with and some of the things you just highlighted there. But I'm keen to know what are some of the big trends, whether it be educational, travel or academia, but what are some of the big trends that you're paying attention to in 2025?
Speaker 8:So I think I mean. One of the things that I think is here is you know, the term that's been coined a couple of years ago is edutainment right.
Speaker 8:You need to be educated and entertained at the same time, and one of the things that I think this audience really wants to do is they want to come back differently. They want to come back more educated. I think one of the big trends is wellness, and I think one of the reasons is there's a measurement when you travel that you can see wait, did I lose two pounds? Did I feel a little better? Did I get more steps? There's a measurement tool. You can say I got more educated by this trip, but you can't really measure it per se. So I think people want to see that. They want to see that return on investment for their time more than anything else and the money, and so I think they're looking for that as one of the trends, and I think wellness will start to creep into it.
Speaker 8:Another quick one that you'll hear tomorrow is my theory that we're all going towards a dim sum life. Okay, tell us more. Which is, in essence, we don't want big plates anymore. If you go into a restaurant, there's not big plates, it's small plates. We want dim sum. But when you think about this, this extends beyond just a menu.
Speaker 8:If you think about the way we consume media you look at a YouTube and it's 17 minutes and you think, oh, that's forever, but you'll consume 30 seconds for another hour. If you look at some of the micro learning, well, I don't want to read a book, but if I can get a synopsis in 15 minutes I'm interested. If you look at health and training now I have to go to a class and every two minutes there's another activity. And if the instructor says we're going to do this for five minutes, people roll their eyes because it's an eternity. So I need a new exercise every 30 seconds or 60 seconds at my yoga class or whatever it happens to be.
Speaker 8:So that's how we're consuming almost everything and we're moving quickly. I mean, if you look at blended travel, I'm jumping between work and vacation and work and travel, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and so smart. So that means the people who are putting together trips have to be conscious of that and you can't do a three-hour thing or a four-hour thing without little bites in the middle of it, which means possibly more activities on travel, maybe a little more resting time to digest everything, but they're looking for more and more activities and I think that's going to be a challenge for travel companies moving forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure, and this is where you have so many insights and you have so much to offer, and we definitely need more time to unpack it all. But I'm just so glad we had the opportunity, at least initially, to sit down here, not only see each other again, but finally have a chance to record together, Alan. It's certainly something I want to continue on and I'm obviously looking forward to your session tomorrow and keeping in touch with you. So thank you for the friendship and the camaraderie. And, just as we wrap up this time together, where can people find out more information about your projects Obviously the Sigmund project we've mentioned but also connect with you? I'm not expecting people to be able to book 14 minutes with Alan this was very special for me to have this chance today but how can people connect with you or follow some of the other initiatives?
Speaker 8:So, thank you. As I mentioned, they can go for the Sigmund Project. It's thesigmundprojectorg. If they want to contact me, my website is mershencom. It's M-E-R-S-C-H-E-Ncom. I'm more than happy and I will have a 14-minute call with anybody who's interested, because I'll probably be as interested in what they're doing. So I'd love to connect with everybody and, once again, congrats on Travel Trends and everything that you've been doing. It's a great success.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much, alan. It really means a lot. Thank you, thanks. I'm actually joined now by a fellow Canadian. Martin Aldrich is the key account manager at Adventure Canada, heads up all the partnerships and this is his second ETC. So welcome, martin. Great to have you on Travel Trends here at ETC.
Speaker 4:Thanks Dan Great to be here.
Speaker 2:Tell us a little bit first about Adventure Canada and what this organization is all about.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so Adventure Canada is the only Canadian owned and operated family-run expedition cruise company, and we do the east coast of Canada and the Canadian Arctic and Greenland, Iceland, Scotland and lots of other places.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. I've noticed there's a few other Canadians here. I saw Manitoba's here. There's been a few people, which is great, especially given all the dynamics that are happening around the world today. So it's great. The Canadian contingent is here to represent in Mobile, so it's great to meet you. Tell everyone a little bit about your background, because we were catching up just before we sat down to record and Martin was telling me he actually grew up in Halifax, he lives in BC, adventure Canada is based in Mississauga, so he's got the full country cover. But yeah, tell us a little bit of how you got into tourism and specifically this role at Adventure Canada.
Speaker 4:Yeah, that's a great question. I joined Adventure to Adventure Canada 10 years ago.
Speaker 4:I actually came on board the ship as a yoga instructor, so I was in a completely different industry, but I was traveling a ton and I love travel and I was trying to figure out a way to essentially bridge the gap between what I was doing and traveling and found a home at Adventure Canada. I've been here, as I said, for 10 years, started out with driving Zodiacs and doing yoga, and then came into sales, worked up into business development and now I work with pretty much all of our groups on board. I still travel on a trip or two in the summer, but yeah, got to go to a bunch of different conferences throughout the year and meet fabulous people, networking, talking about travel and how travel can change people's lives.
Speaker 2:That's really cool. I mean, it's great when you actually come up in the industry and you understand it from being part of creating that experience for guests and then obviously now being an opportunity to encourage more partners to experience a company and a brand like Adventure Canada. So ETC, you're obviously here for your second time, so clearly there was enough reason to come back. But tell us how you ended up getting involved with ETC. What is the connection between Adventure Canada, I guess? What are some of the benefits you see about coming to this event?
Speaker 4:Absolutely. I mean, the connections that you make at ETC are great. The people here are fantastic, knowledgeable, interesting, and I think that's why I'm coming back. We're recognizing that obviously the world is changing, but people still want to travel and people still want to learn when they're traveling and they want an immersive experience. So that's what we offer and I think that really is something that alumni groups you know out of universities and across the world really are looking for is going to a place, learning as much as possible about the place and getting to experience as much as possible.
Speaker 2:Now, had you already been working with ETC before attending last year, or was that sort of the first time you guys started to collaborate with this organization and all the alumni?
Speaker 4:Yeah, prior to the pandemic Adventure, canada was part of ETC. It wasn't part of my realm at that time, so really it's a post-pandemic revitalization.
Speaker 2:Got it. That's exactly how this podcast started was what traveler behavior looked like post-pandemic. So I think our listeners will certainly understand that and I guess that's where, as we sit here in 2025, given some of the challenging dynamics that are occurring, obviously these types of partnerships are more important than ever because alumni programs have essentially a captive audience of you know. Oftentimes you know high net worth people that are well-educated and they have a desire for foreign travel. As you know, working in the travel industry, those are like the criteria we're looking for. To market to someone is like do they have an interest in foreign travel, do they have time off and do they have the money to be able to do it? Those kind of like the three essential criteria, and alumni programs have all of those in spades, I guess, right. So tell us about some of the partnerships that you've been able to realize what last year are coming into this year and how meaningful I guess they've been to Adventure Canada.
Speaker 4:Yeah for sure. Well, we've worked with a lot of different alumni groups from the UK, from the States and from Canada as well. You know, I think it's a really interesting group of people that come on board when they come together. There's a similar ethos in the group and they want to learn. And so I think that, you know, coming to ETC especially getting to network with different groups that are either working with alumni or are part of a travel program planet program you know, you just, it broadens the horizon of what we can offer and what we can do, and being able to customize for groups is really important for us. So we've seen a lot of different interests, interest groups. So, whether it's, you know, or anthology, or and I'm seeing your Galapagos feet here the blue footed booby fit blue foot.
Speaker 2:Hear the um blue-footed booby fit uh, blue-footed excuse me, blue-footed boobies.
Speaker 2:Yes, we can say that three times, twice exactly. Blue-footed boobies from galapagos. Yeah, as martin called out, because I actually have, he's. Uh, we're sitting across from each other. Of course, this is all audio and my laptop has one of our most special trips ever last couple, two years ago, we went to the galapagos and it was truly extraordinary experience for our family. But, but, anyway, yeah, so, but sorry, back to you. The other thing I wanted to ask you too, martin, just in as you're talking about working with these different alumni groups, is the types of experiences that you offer, since I'm not familiar about Adventure Canada and certainly we'll get more up to speed, so tell everyone the website I guess that's one thing for sure so that people can follow along at home. But specifically, if you wouldn't mind outlining some of the types of experiences that you offer that could be of interest to our listeners yeah for sure.
Speaker 4:Um, so adventurecanadacom a-d-v-e-n-t-u-r-e adventure um, that's the best place to check out all of the different trips that we offer. Um, but yeah, we're a small ship expedition cruise company, so we are on a 79 passenger and a 144 passenger ship, so there's two different ships. They all run a series of trips throughout. Well, starting in 2026, we'll be starting in Northern Europe, working from Scotland up to the Faroe Islands and Iceland over to Greenland. The big ticket item that we offer is the Canadian Arctic and the Northwest Passage. So we've been doing that since 2009.
Speaker 4:40 years in the business, or almost 40 years in the business, starting with overland trips on Baffin Island, and the main focus of the company is to get people to remote places, to take an incredible team of experts with the passengers and really just have an immersive experience.
Speaker 4:So getting to be on the land, in remote communities and potentially in the Canadian Arctic or wherever we might be traveling, to get off onto the land, go for hikes, see beautiful vistas, but also, you know, wildlife is a big focus for us as well, but the team of specialists really take it away and they're the ones who really bring it home and they're going to be there on the Zodiacs or on the ship, doing different presentations, workshops, talking about all the different things that we're seeing. They're going to be there on the zodiacs or on the ship doing different presentations, workshops, talking about all the different things that we're seeing, whether it's archaeology, the ornithology, the marine biology, the history, the culture. It's all really important and we want to make sure that everybody, everybody's needs of what they want to learn about is taken care of that's interesting.
Speaker 2:I mean again not being familiar with the company. That's why I wanted to get a bit more detail about the two ships and then also the destinations you cover, Because I figured for sure by virtue of the branding that it was Canada, but I also didn't realize that you also extend to Europe and obviously ships can go anywhere. How much of the business is Canadian specific? And what I mean by that is not Canadian travelers but Canadian travel experiences versus international?
Speaker 4:For sure. Well, the company started going to Scotland in 1995, so almost 30 years now in Scotland, and that's because the heritage of the family that runs the company is Scottish. But we started on Baffin Island in the late 80s doing overland trips and then Newfoundland circumnavigation is one of the biggest trips that we offer. So I may not be touching on all the different destinations in Canada that we go to, but yeah, newfoundland, nova Scotia, where I was born, we visit as well, cape Breton, pei, we go to the coast of Labrador, baffin Island incredible, beautiful spot. And then almost all of the trips that we offer go to Greenland as well, except except for the East Coast trips. But Greenland has really been a big destination for us. It's really popular at the moment. I'm not sure why. I hear they have rare earth minerals.
Speaker 2:Is that the case?
Speaker 7:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I guess people really want to see those off close for themselves. That's great. We can joke about that as Canadians and just with what's going on in the world, but nevertheless. But you actually mentioned Baffin Island. I don't think that that's I mean being a Canadian.
Speaker 2:You always hear about Baffin Island. I mean it's someplace that's more known to us. But tell everyone if you wouldn't be a bit about that destination specifically, because this is where I think, as I was just in Europe, I was at the ITB conference in Berlin and the number of people that when I mentioned I was Canadian, instantly they were sympathetic to some of the things they were seeing in the news, which I appreciated. But at the same time there was almost like a rallying cry of people more interested in Canada, which I guess, like if there is any silver lining, there could be a potential for more international tourism to Canada by virtue of raising the awareness about what a special place in the world it is. So tell us a little bit more about Baffin Island and, if you wouldn't mind, feel free to highlight any of the other really special places about Canada that you guys offer that are truly unique.
Speaker 4:Yeah, absolutely Well. Baffin Island, I think it's the largest island in the Canadian Arctic, so it's not the size of Greenland but it's very large. The East Coast has massive fjord systems and lots of high peaks. There are communities all throughout. The southern communities are a little more renowned for their Inuit art and then the communities in the north are typically larger, so Pond Inlet is one of them. Arctic Bay would be another.
Speaker 4:There is a decent amount of mining that I know of that goes on in the northern part of Baffin Island. But for us as a travel company, we're going there to visit communities looking for wildlife. So one of my favorite places that we've been to is one of the fjords in the northern part, near Pond Inlet, and it's full of these incredible mountains and they go right from the water straight up and out. You know, sometimes 5,000 feet up, and there's narwhal, beluga, whales, arctic char, lots of different seal species and you're there essentially on your own with just the ship and the other passengers. But there's very little infrastructure, you have no cell service, so you're able to really just disconnect, and I think that's probably one of the main things that I like about our trips is getting off to these really remote places and completely disconnecting.
Speaker 4:But yeah, a little further south is the coast of Labrador and they kind of continue in a similar diagonal line and the Torngat Mountains of Labrador are really, really not known about enough. I don't think they're a very similar kind of landscape as Baffin Island or the east coast of Baffin Island High peaks in these fjords. No people, or very few people, live in the Torngat Mountains. Sorry, no people live in the Torngat Mountains. Sorry, no people live in the Torngat Mountains and very few people live on Baffin Island. But the Torngat Mountains are spectacular. There's beautiful fjords. Yeah, very similar wildlife, except for we have black bears as well as polar bears in this area. So that's, of course, something I've not talked about, but Baffin Island has lots of polar bears. Two-thirds of the world's polar bears in fact live in the Arctic and Canada.
Speaker 2:That's really cool. Now, I know we've mentioned the website, but I want to make sure that people can connect with you or learn more about Adventure Canada. So leave us, if you wouldn't mind, martin, with some ways to connect with you. Learn more about the business organizations here that might be considering coming to ETC next year by virtue of listening to this podcast, and someone, I guess, like myself, that didn't have a full understanding of ETC, and here's someone that's had two years of experience and presumably planning to come next year. So how can they contact you? And, yeah, what are your thoughts on recommendations for others to join us next year?
Speaker 4:Yeah, for sure, I'm on LinkedIn, so, martin Aldrich is a good way to find me. You can email me partner P-A-R-T-N-E-R at adventurecanadacom or go to the website adventurecanadacom. I think the depth of knowledge of the people who attend here is really amazing, and you can go to conferences and meet a lot of people and not really make a true connection. But I feel like the connections here that I'm making are deep, or deeper than just surface-level interaction, and there's a real want and desire to find reputable companies that are doing good things, that they can know and trust and bring their travelers on their trips with.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Well, it's a real pleasure to meet you here, martin. I'm glad that we had this chance to sit down, and I certainly wish you and the team every success in the year ahead and look forward to crossing paths in Canada at some point.
Speaker 4:Sounds good, Dan Thanks a lot.
Speaker 2:I now have the pleasure to speak to another fellow Canadian. This is so awesome for me because I didn't expect there to be so many incredible Canadians down here. There's a lot of people from around the world here at the ETC Conference, obviously a lot of fantastic Americans. But I have the privilege now of introducing you to Sarah Robinson, who is the Business Development Manager at Tourism Winnipeg, and I just discovered that Sarah highlighted to me that the ETC Conference was in Winnipeg last year. That's correct. How cool is that? So welcome, sarah. Great to have you on Travel Trends. Thank you, it's great to be here. So tell us a little bit about your background in tourism and how you got into this industry, if you wouldn't mind starting off there.
Speaker 10:Sure, yeah, I mean it's funny because I never would have imagined working in tourism and I think when you come from a city like, so you know, win 850 000 people were a fairly small city but the capital of the province of manitoba, and I grew up thinking, you know, I mean tourism wasn't a huge thing in winnipeg at the time when I was growing up and so I wouldn't have imagined getting into it. But, um, I ended up moving to madrid for about 10 years oh wow, good for you yeah, and it was.
Speaker 10:It's an incredible experience. If you've ever been there, it's fabulous, I speak. Spanish Nice, not just keep it qua.
Speaker 2:French.
Speaker 10:Yeah, yeah, my Spanish is way better than my French, so let's not go there.
Speaker 10:But yeah, and so I moved there and you know, partially from someone that I met, and so we ended up starting a tourism business essentially which is really interesting that ended up being linked, directly linked to the official tourism office of Madrid. And so we were an independent business that we created on our own, but we had those ties to the official tourism office because they thought it was a great project, so they kind of gave us their institutional support. So that was my first introduction to tourism. So it was more based on students, so essentially international students or erasmus students that would come to madrid and so we would be kind of their, their overall hosts in the city of Madrid, planning cultural activities, you know, cooking workshops, flamenco workshops, and then traveling, traveling all across Europe and all across Spain. So that's how I got into it. And so when, you know, ended up moving back to Winnipeg, there was this opening at Tourism Winnipeg and I said, well, I've kind of done that before, and so I applied and got the job.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. That's great. You've got that entrepreneurial experience. And then now obviously being part of a government organization, because I'm sure there's a lot you bring to your role, that is, that pioneering, entrepreneurial spirit to make things happen and get things done, and so it's always interesting to have both perspectives. But tell us a little bit about Tourism Winnipeg, about the organization and what it is you guys do. Obviously you promote Winnipeg as a destination. Obviously that's a big part of it. But yeah, tell us a little bit more about Tourism Winnipeg.
Speaker 10:Yeah, of course. So obviously, yeah, we're the destination marketing organization of Winnipeg. We're actually really unique in the sense that we're a branch of Economic Development Winnipeg. So we, like you know, our branch specifically is focused on generating visitors right and building the visitor economy to Winnipeg. So that's done in various ways. So my target market is essentially travel trade, right. So those are the tour operators, the travel agents. I'm trying to get them to package travel to Winnipeg. But we also focus on other markets like meetings and conventions. So bringing a convention to the city, such as bringing ETC to Winnipeg, it's not my market specifically, but we do that as well. Example the Junos. We just hosted recently the World Police and Fire Games a couple of years ago in Winnipeg. So things like that we focus. So it's essentially kind of improving or, you know, bringing money to the visitor economy. That's our goal overall. So we're a small branch of economic development in Winnipeg.
Speaker 2:Got it, and you have some colleagues here as well as Manitobans here. Yes, travel Manitoba, yeah, travel Manitoba is here. Uh, tell us a little bit how. You and and one other colleague I should actually highlight too, is john gunter, from frontiers north, and so you have tour operators, you've got provincial and then, obviously, city focus. How do you guys work together? And because one of the things that came up this morning, um, is it one of your colleagues highlighted, uh, all the representatives here from manitoba and winnipeg, and John as well, because clearly that is the whole ecosystem of travel. And so, yeah, how do you guys work together and complement each other?
Speaker 10:Yeah. So that's really important and I think also we have been told before and I don't know if it's a Canadian thing that we work really really close together and really it's a collaboration. So we even go on sales missions together where we each have our individual you know, quote unquote product to sell, tourism product to sell, whether it's a hotel or an attraction. But when we all go on a sales mission together our one goal is to sell Winnipeg or to sell Manitoba, and we work together as a joint team to do that. And then secondary is promoting or selling your individual property or attraction. So that's really really important.
Speaker 10:So, obviously, travel Manitoba. They are a government organization. I work closely with them because they promote the entire province. You know, special focus on Churchill, manitoba. That's one of the main draws to come to Manitoba. And then I'm just more focused specifically on the city, the capital city of Winnipeg. And then we have all of our wonderful suppliers that have tourism products to sell. So whether that is a John Gunter from Frontiers North that is selling his Churchill experience, or it's a hotel, like you know, the Delta Hotel in Winnipeg, or it's the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, which is one of our star attractions in Winnipeg, or it's the Canadian Museum for Human Rights, which is one of our star attractions in Winnipeg, so working all together to make sure that we're selling all of the same unified message to the world about Winnipeg and Manitoba.
Speaker 2:Very cool. And then ETC. So the fact you hosted last year and obviously this is your fourth ETC, right? So what brings you to ETC? I mean, obviously some of those can be obvious to myself or our listener, but I'm very keen to get your take on why ETC is such an important conference for Tourism Winnipeg to be a part of.
Speaker 10:Mm-hmm for sure, and so probably the most obvious answer is that I'm here to talk to tour operators and I'm here to talk to travel planners, but in addition to that, I'm here to assess, you know, the current travel trends. I need to know what's going on, what the demands are out there for package travel, what you know the sentiments are for travel. So, just in general, I need to get a gauge on what is happening at the moment. So that's really important. And then I mean, in addition to that, it's the education as well. Etc is a really unique conference in the sense that I attend a lot of conferences and conventions and I love the fact that ETC really focuses on education, and so that's one of the reasons that I continue to come back, because the quality of education at this conference is exceptional.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. The one thing I'd certainly like to ask you, then, sarah, is whether someone listening to this is considering attending for the first time, like you were four years ago. What would be your advice to them if they're considering about coming to the event or becoming part of the ETC community?
Speaker 10:Yeah, I mean I would highly recommend it Again. This is my fourth year here and it's very, very different. So and I think who's listening to this podcast? Very likely they have attended other conferences and you know I attend a lot of great conferences, but some of them are extremely large. This is a smaller, intimate conference and so you really get to connect with people. I mean, at some of these large conferences, you're lucky if you speak to you know, five or six people. You're in a big space.
Speaker 10:It's all about the one-on-one speed dating appointments that are seven minutes long, which is really difficult to do.
Speaker 10:Here at ETC we have those appointments.
Speaker 10:They're, you know, 15 minutes long, but it's not really the focus is not about that Like, it's really about networking, it's about learning, it's about meeting people that have commonalities and common interests and you know, one thing I really like to focus on is, you know, I want to mention the word like a high value traveler.
Speaker 10:So this is something that at Tourism Winnipeg and it even extends beyond to Destination Canada. So we're obviously somewhat linked to Destination Canada as being the overall marketing agency for all of Canada and their whole strategy in tourism is focusing on the high value traveler and essentially that is someone that stays longer in the destination, spends money in the destination, cares about the destination, wants to learn about the local communities. In that case, for candidates, the local Indigenous communities and attendees that are at ETC, that's exactly what they're looking for, right? So tour operators are looking to build packages that include the experiences that are very authentic or true to the destination, because that's what their guests are looking for. The affinity travel market right, the alumni travel market is essentially looking for those experiences and that's exactly what, as a destination, that we're looking for. So, by attending ETC, you essentially have this arm's length in order to an opportunity to reach these high value travelers.
Speaker 2:That's super interesting and that's really valuable advice, and what you just shared with me actually I found quite profound because it's still early for me to understand the value and really appreciate what's happening around me, and so those insights were really meaningful. Obviously, I'm keen to make sure that our listeners can connect with you because clearly after that especially people coming up in the industry it's one of the things I was actually going to mention to you, sarah, just in context to these conversations is that a couple of our interviewees have talked about the fact that it's an older group here, like 50 plus, and you represent smart, young, talented, like up and coming, and there's a few people here that are 20s, 30s and or below 50. And so clearly you've highlighted many reasons for the next generation, if you will, to come to ETC and to benefit from this community. So I do want to make sure that people can follow up with you and they can also learn more about Tourism Winnipeg. So if you wouldn't mind sharing how best to be able to do that, that would be great.
Speaker 10:For sure. I think email is best. It's fairly simple. It's Sarah. I guess you have to know how to spell Winnipeg, but Sarah S-A-R-A-H at tourismwinnipegcom, so that's W-I-N-N-I-P-E-Gcom.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's the two Ns. Yes, two Ns Very very, very important. I've so enjoyed our conversation. I'm glad we've met and, sarah, I met just before we started recording. I was like I noticed you in the session yesterday and I was thrilled that you were coming in to record today. So, yeah, it's a real pleasure to meet you. I look forward to keeping in touch and seeing you at the conference in the next couple days.
Speaker 10:You as well. Thanks, it's been a pleasure to talk to you and thank you for the opportunity.
Speaker 2:I now have the privilege to sit down and connect with an old friend, someone that actually I was looking forward to seeing at the event when I knew he was going to be here. His name is Ian Kynor and he used to work at the Travel Corporation with me and we were part of the same team at Contiki many years ago. But he's gone on to continued success, as I would have absolutely expected from him, because he was an outstanding team member then, and clearly he's risen to prominence in this industry. And he's coming to this event for how many years now? Seven years.
Speaker 11:This is, yeah, seventh year.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing, Ian. So Ian's role he's the Director of Affinity and Charter Sales at National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions. So awesome, Ian, so great to see you again. How are you? What's going on? Tell us about this new role.
Speaker 11:Oh, it's fantastic. Well, first, it's great to see you, Dan. Thank you so much. I saw your name on the list and it was immediately elated that you were going to be here and congratulations on the podcast.
Speaker 11:It's fantastic so it's great to see you. So the role is it's fantastic. The involvement with ETC is incredible. But yeah, national Geographic Lindblad Expeditions expedition cruising points all over the world. Lindblad Expeditions previously started in the 60s One of the first companies to do private landings to the Galapagos and to Antarctica and we've been leading that charge ever since Antarctica and we've been leading that charge ever since, really focused on responsible exploration and responsible expeditioning and it's just a great role and I'm thrilled to be a part of that team.
Speaker 2:Now they're very lucky to have you and it's a perfect role for you, because one of the things that Ian and I collaborated on when I was overseeing Contiki USA he was responsible for all of the universities and alumni organizations, so he was already very active in this space. And it's so fascinating for me to sit here across from him because we used to sit in my office in Cyprus and Orange County and that's where he lives, although he's lived in a few places across the US. But I got a chance to know him and his wife and his kids, and so we'd go to picnics together and we still connected on social media. So I still feel quite connected to Ian, but I still go back. I mean, my memory from our time together previously is sitting together in a room going over the numbers, looking at the results of various initiatives you had underway, and that's where my admiration for you is very sincere. Not only are you a great industry executive, you're incredibly well-connected, and that's when I saw not only are you here at this event, this is another thing.
Speaker 2:I also want to highlight, ian as well. You're actually part of the advisory, the Executive Advisory Council for ETC, and I was just like man, oh man, I'm like this is like Ian, congratulations, thank you. First of all, it's just like I'm just. I'm so for you. Tell us a little bit about the ETC connection. I'll come back to National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions as well, because I am keen to know a little bit more about that. But I'm really keen to know about your connection to ETC, how this all came about and what brings you to ETC.
Speaker 11:Sure. So there's an interesting thing about ETC that, as large of a conference as it is, relative to the travel space it sits the best way I can describe it it kind of sits apart from a lot of normal tour operating, a lot of the operators that are here work almost exclusively with the educational travel community, which are alumni associations, not-for-profit organizations, zoos, art museums, et cetera, and it's a very, very close-knit community with operators really focused on the mission of the institutions, these alumni associations that are building engagement, that are bringing value to being an alumni of their organization or their institution and ETC. I came to ETC like I said, this is six, seven years ago and it was really a discovery for me. It was at the time TTC had not really participated in ETC, it was new. We were new into the organization and one of the very first things I discovered was this operates very different from any other trade show conference, any place that I've been before.
Speaker 11:Yeah, uh, and it took it took just a minute to get used to what I was going to be experiencing, but as soon as I came around to it you know, this is really the word that's used a lot is community and everybody's really focused on the same thing of exploration, but exploration in a transformative way, and the word word transformative travel and transformation travel it gets thrown around quite a bit, but here it's taken really, really seriously that every destination, every place is going to impact not only the person who's visiting, but the place that's being visited.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, it's so interesting. I guess that's where I mean going back to that time and collaborating together. Etc was not on my radar, and so it clearly has not only become an important part of your role, but also the fact that you are, you know, not only in the role that you've now taken on, but you're an elevated position within the ETC community, and we were chatting last night and clearly everyone knows you. You know everybody here, and that's why I was just like Ian, this is so awesome. Like you have found your place, you found your people. Mara, who is the CEO and founder, of course, of ETC, she was keen for us to connect and both of us were like we know each other really well, but she highlighted to me that you had just got back from Antarctica.
Speaker 2:I did so. Tell us a little bit more about that trip things. Literally, I wanted to ask you as a friend and a colleague. I've not been yet and clearly it's one of the most epic places you could travel on this planet and that's a specialty, I'm assuming. Yes, national Geographic Lindblad Expedition.
Speaker 11:So yeah, tell us a little bit more about that journey experience you've been on and, I guess, what makes that so special as part of the collection, we could do an entire podcast just on part of that topic, so to geek out for just a second, I think for me there were a lot of things that stood out. The destination is absolutely incredible, the wildlife, what we were able to see. I think at one point in time I joked that I can't take any more pictures of icebergs and then five minutes later I'm out on the deck taking a picture of an iceberg. But the destination is absolutely incredible.
Speaker 11:The adventure of crossing the Drake Passage, doing something and feeling like an explorer of old and we were making comments that more people have been to Antarctica than have crossed the Drake Passage, because you can fly into Antarctica and we do that as well. But the adventure of crossing the Drake and then arriving in Antarctica, being at the bottom of the earth, seeing wildlife from penguins to whales, to birds I am I will admit I am not a birder- I do not know my bird species particularly well, but crossing the Drake Passage, we had our birding expert sharing some of the species we were going to see and what to recognize.
Speaker 11:I have never been more interested and fascinated in finding and seeing whether it be the Arctic terns or the albatross or whatever it may be. It was absolutely thrilling just to be able to look at all those things. Uh, and beyond that, the ship itself. Uh, I I will say I'm a little bit of an engineering nerd and the marvel of the ship, and and the way the, the, the ship keeps us stable and uh, and it operates, and cutting edge technology that's involved to make the, uh, the voyage as comfortable as possible. Uh, and and navigate these polar regions safely and into places that a lot of people just can't go. Uh, it was. It was incredible from start to finish. I highly recommend you go. You take the family, but, yeah, every day was something new.
Speaker 11:Getting out on Zodiacs, I think one of my favorite experiences. I'll share this because it was absolutely amazing At one point in time. We're stopped and the ships are designed they don't drop anchor, they use their propulsion and just kind of stay put, gps, they sit there, so there's no damaging to the seafloor. Uh, no kind of twisting around to the wind. Uh, so we're one of our, one of our stops. We're stopped to get out on the Zodiacs. We take the Zodiac out, uh, and it was. It was a moment to reflect and just be present in the place. We were, and one of our naturalists, one of the expedition team, had brought watercolors and we all had a little piece of paper and a clipboard and we were just encouraged to sit there, take it all in and do watercoloring. I haven't done watercolors since I was probably four or five years old and my watercolor painting looks it.
Speaker 2:It is terrible. It all came flooding back to you.
Speaker 11:You put the most incredible landscape together oh no, it is awful but it is. It is probably one of my most treasured possessions from that, from that experience, uh, just because of the moment that it was and just having that, uh, that time to just take in the grandeur and the beauty of the place oh, that's really cool.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad you had that experience. Was it just you and your wife, though, on this one, or was it just were you solo? I was solo, oh man, the family, I'm sure.
Speaker 11:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because we, obviously, our kids, know each other and our wives have met, of course, and we're in a similar stage of life in terms of and I was just thinking about, that type of trip to me stands out as a reason for them to want to travel with us like that. They would do this, but clearly you're going to have to go back and you're going to take them.
Speaker 11:I absolutely have to take all of them and hopefully this summer. You know my wife's a high school English teacher, my two boys in school, so stealing them away all away from school in mid-February wasn't going to happen.
Speaker 2:But this summer we're going to get out and we're all going to travel together and share the experience. For sure that's awesome. Well, I got a couple other questions for you, ian. One of them I wanted to ask just about what's ahead for you in your role and specifically with everything that's happening with National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions. It's such an exciting business to be a part of. Obviously, this whole sector is growing considerably. Despite various headwinds that may impact travel over the next year or two, there's certainly a huge demand for this category. Tell us a little bit about what's ahead for you and the team.
Speaker 11:Absolutely, it is a year. If I can distill it down to one simple word, it's growth. We've grown our internal team, we've grown our fleet of ships across all of the destinations that we sail to and we have the largest fleet, the largest US company fleet, in the Galapagos. Amazing ships from our largest ship, a little over 100 passengers. All of the ships are small ships. We have two 48-passenger ships in the Galapagos and my personal favorite, a 16-passenger Cadmaran in the Galapagos. So, yes, so we need, between your family and my family, we need another family of four. We can go take the Delfina and the Galapagos, the 16 of us, and have our own little private journey, the 16 of us, and have our own little private, uh, private journey. Uh, but it is it for me, specifically in my role, it really is just introducing, uh, national geographic linblad expeditions to to new audiences and new people. Uh, there are, there are plenty of individuals, entities, groups that are that are just wanting to get out and explore and want to have that experience that National Geographic and Lindblad Expeditions can provide, and it's really just being there and being present and presenting the opportunity for them to visit these places. So for me, going forward, it really is just introducing as many people as I can to National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions and just sharing what we do and how we do it and let them be inspired and then get on a voyage and then, beyond that, the same for National Geographic Lindblad Expeditions, just to see the success and the enjoyment and guests coming back and telling their friends.
Speaker 11:I was on this Antarctica voyage. I was with a past traveler. She has done 11 National Geographic Lindblad expedition voyages and she can tell you every person she was on board with every moment and experience and it's just great to hear those stories and those testimonials from people. And then we had the folks that were the brand new first time. I would I love that the first time for some of the families was Antarctica go big or go home. And yeah, just sharing, sharing who we are and what we do, and just sharing the destinations and the way we travel with as many people as we can.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's amazing. I'm so happy for you. And the other thing I wanted to ask you too, just given the background you have with ETC and now, obviously, all the work you're doing in the cruise space, what are some of the other benefits you've seen specifically from this year's conference compared to previous ones? I know you guys sponsored the opening keynote this morning, which was amazing, with Michael Clinton, the author of Roar, who we'll have on the podcast at some point coming up. But he gave an amazing presentation about longevity and the rapid growing 50 plus audience and how you know wellness and the things that are important to them and the type of travel that you offer. Like it was a perfect brand fit. And I came up to you right afterwards to be like that was amazing and what a great brand synergy. So that was a highlight for me. But what have been some of the highlights for you? Obviously, I'm sure that was one as well, but what have been some of the other standouts?
Speaker 11:That was absolutely one of the top highlights, one of the things that I love about the conference regardless of what city it's in, the conference always hosts what are called learning labs. And this year, here in Mobile, we had three learning labs at the very start of the conference and the learning labs are an opportunity for as many as who can participate, who can arrive on Monday, to truly immerse themselves in the destination and experience the place. And of the three learning labs, the one I chose just because I was fascinated by the history. Mobile holds the title of the providers, the originators of Mardi Gras in the US, and I think there might be a debate between them in New Orleans, but I am solidly in the Mobile camp but getting to participate in that learning lab where we learned a little bit about the history of Mobile, pre-colonial times, as a French, as Spanish, everything that contribute to what Mobile is.
Speaker 11:Uh, we were led down the streets of Mobile, uh, by the Excelsior band, which is one of the? Uh, the largest uh, or the oldest uh, the oldest Mardi Gras band here in Mobile. So, excelsior band, check them out, they're fantastic. They led us down the street for four or five blocks. We went to the uh, uh, we went to the mardi gras or to the carnival museum, uh, and I think one of the the more fascinating, we went, uh, to one of the uh, to one of the societies, to their uh, to their float warehouse, where these floats are absolutely incredible, the, the art and the crafts, the time and attention to detail to make these floats, and every year they get torn down, rebuilt again. It was just such a fascinating view into the culture, into the traditions of Mobile and just to hear everyone we met that day, the way they spoke about their passion for their city, why these traditions are so important, yeah, uh, you know that's going to always sit with me forever.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. I mean I I wish I was there with you. I mean we'll have a chance to hang out tonight because obviously I want this conversation to go on. I know we'll get more time to catch up, so it's wonderful to be here together. I want to make sure that anyone listening to this that is only just coming to know you and how awesome and amazing you are, that wants to find a way to connect with you or to work with you in some way, please let everyone know how best to find you, connect with you and also to learn more about National Geographic Limblad Expeditions.
Speaker 11:Absolutely. Can I give an email address on the For sure? Yeah, absolutely the easiest way. I mean all the usual places social media, linkedin. But first name, ian I-A-N dot Kiner, k-y-n-o-r at expeditionscom. I'd love to answer any questions that you have. At the very least, I would love to just talk travel with you and continue to do so for hours and hours. But IanKiner at expeditionscom, that keeps things easy. Find me on LinkedIn as well, ian Kiner, and we're good to go.
Speaker 2:Awesome and obviously expeditionscom is the place to check out.
Speaker 11:Expeditionscom.
Speaker 8:Yeah.
Speaker 11:That's it, that's for everything. That's for everything. National Geographic, lindblad Expeditions, for sure, amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you for your continued friendship and, obviously, camaraderie in this industry. I look forward to getting more time together and having you back on the show at some point as well, too, ian.
Speaker 11:I would be honored to. I would love to. It's great to chat with you, Dan.
Speaker 2:Thanks a lot, Ian.
Speaker 11:Thanks.
Speaker 2:I now have the privilege to sit down with a true veteran of ETC. Jim Friedlander is the president of Arrangements Abroad. He actually kindly gave us some advice for our AI Summit session that we're going to be doing tomorrow, but he's been coming to this conference for over 25 years and I know there's going to be a lot that we can learn from you, Jim, about ETC. So welcome to Travel Trends. Great to have you on. It's a pleasure to be here and an honor. That's great, Thank you. Let's start. If you don't mind to give everyone just a bit of background, because you do quite a bit in this industry. Tell us a little bit how you got into tourism in the first place.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, I got into tourism the old-fashioned way pure nepotism. So my parents founded Arrangements Abroad in 1977. My mother was a schoolteacher taking kids overseas, kids overseas. I got into it In 1999, I joined the company and became CEO shortly thereafter and 10 years later my parents retired and I've been running it ever since and it's been a lot of fun.
Speaker 2:It's been a great journey, that's a great story, and actually I did know that because when we had the pre-call and I found this really fascinating. Actually, just your backstory is that many people who work in travel do come from travel families, or did less and less so today, I suppose, but nevertheless I do find that fascinating. It's the business you're born into and it's the business you know, and you've been running this business now for more than 25 years, and so there's lots I'm keen to ask you, but I guess just to start off with, to make sure everyone knows what you guys do, give us a bit of an overview of what Arrangements Abroad.
Speaker 1:So we run about 100 to 150 trips all around the world. We primarily take Americans, but about 10 or 15 percent of our travelers are from overseas. We work with very high-end political groups. We work with high-end I mean like Washington think tanks. We work with the top universities in the country, the top secondary schools and colleges, and we take them all over the world.
Speaker 2:We take their alumni, we take patrons of museums and we show them the world in a way that they can't do it on their own give us a couple of examples, if you wouldn't mind, because I think this is where, like, obviously you've been in this industry for many years and a lot of the trips that you curate, I'm sure are quite special and unique. So give us maybe, if you wouldn't mind, jim, just a couple of examples of itineraries you've put together. And when you mentioned those, you know those, know those high-end political groups, like you know, you have to name them specifically, but it'd be great. I'm just trying to imagine and picture exactly what one of these experiences looks like.
Speaker 1:So one of those experiences that we did recently was taking a group of senior diplomats to various NATO countries that are involved in the Ukraine-Russia conflict, ending with a meeting with the Supreme Allied Commander of NATO. So we visited presidents, we visited ministers of defense, key army installations, really to go behind the scenes in a way that you could never just walk into any of these places on your own. It was all private jet, it was super high end and very special trip, no kidding. But it's trips like that that I think are good for international relations, are good for relationships around the world and add meaning to what we do. Those aren't just tourism trips, those are trips that bring connections.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating. I'm really glad that I asked that question because I figured you were going to have a really compelling answer to that. And I guess this is where thinking for our audience, many people who are either new to the travel industry or getting into the travel industry and clearly there's a lot of people that are veterans as well but I'm sure, even if they are, one of the things they're wondering, same as me, is like how do you get that kind of business right? It's like an ETZ, obviously alumni programs we'll get into that in a moment but that is a very unique audience. So clearly you know your parents had the business and you've been running it very successfully for quite a number of years. But how do those opportunities present themselves or how do you court those types of opportunities?
Speaker 1:For the most part people approach us and you know we've done other trips, you know taking a board of directors of another Washington think tank to Cuba, and you know engaging in really conversations that are tracked to diplomacy, meaning not official government to government, because there are a lot of things that are frozen. When one government talks to another government, you know they have to be official but you can have side conversations with people who used to be a secretary of state and they're much more productive. So that track two diplomacy is something that we foster but you know that's a small part of our business. We also work with high-end cultural groups in the visual arts the performing arts and academia.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, one of the ways, I'm sure, is the referrals that you clearly you know when you run a great business operationally and business finds you because they've heard great things and this is, you know, very clear even just as we sat down. Jim is a clearly highly respected person here at ETC. So let's bring it to alumni and what brings us here, because obviously that's an important part of your business as well. So tell us how you got involved with ETC and, I guess, a bit of an overview of the type of business that you generate as a result of connecting with these alumni organizations.
Speaker 1:So I think the great thing about ETC is the you know, you hear the word community all the time and that there are people who come from the different aspects of the tourism journey for a traveler. So it starts with a destination. If you are a destination, lots of destinations come here to not to sell but to educate the travel planners. Not to sell but to educate the travel planners, the people who are representing the universities, to educate them on what their destination has to offer. And you know, I'll give an example, maybe a controversial example, but an example. You know, israel came here 10, 15 years ago. There were zero trips to Israel from this community 15 years ago and they had invited me on a fam trip and I went and I said, wow, what an interesting destination. You know, here's the Bible. You know, like, everywhere you turn it's a biblical reference. And you know, and I gave them an introductory conversation and I talked about how I was surprised by how rich it was and what there was to see. So I think you can take a country and spotlight it. Ten years after that there are a hundred trips a year. Well, right now there's zero trips a year, but you know, ten years later there were a hundred trips a year to Israel. Yeah, so a huge investment on the part of Israel to come and be a sponsor and do a dinner for everybody. But it really paid off because not only did they get bodies going to Israel, but they got influencers, people who were in a position to influence policy.
Speaker 1:I think I could give you a lot of other examples. That was just one that popped into my mind of how a destination can use ETC. So there are destinations here. There are also suppliers here cruise lines, hotel companies we're sponsoring the dinner tonight, co-sponsoring with Rocco Forte, high-end hotel company, great properties in Italy and around the world, and we're proud to be associated with properties that represent excellence and then foreign suppliers.
Speaker 1:Some of our relationships go back 40 years. We tend to change suppliers very infrequently and we're very loyal to the people we work with. Why? Because when things go wrong in travel, that's when you show who's good and those long relationships pay off. So if I need a helicopter and on a moment's notice nobody asks me for a credit card, they're just oh, jim needs a helicopter, send it. And you want those relationships. Because travel, even despite the internet, is a very personal business For sure. Travel, even despite the internet, is a very personal business. For sure it's a personal relationship with each individual traveler. Or we would call off some new program that they're doing and take that and show it off in a way that makes those institutions look good.
Speaker 2:That's great, but one of the things I would certainly appreciate and I'm sure our listeners would as well someone like yourself who's got more than 25 years experience coming up in a family business. You have been through crisis to crisis. You've been through 9-11. You've been through the Iraq war. You have been through, obviously, the pandemic most recently and this is where younger people and part of my inspiration for this podcast is trying to speak to myself 20 years ago and what are the things I would have liked to have known? And you seem to be someone that obviously can impart a great deal of wisdom and advice. And so, as we find ourselves in choppy waters in 2025 and a bit of uncertainty whether it be the economy or geopolitical events how are you navigating this and what would be your recommendations for others that are asking these questions about what's changing with travel? Are they still traveling? Are they traveling? Are they changing where they're going? How are you approaching that and what advice would you have for others?
Speaker 1:Let me go back in personal history for a second and just say before I was in the travel business, I was in international banking and then consulting and then crisis management.
Speaker 2:So you're well-positioned to answer this question.
Speaker 1:And crisis management is particularly a good background for the travel business in my years.
Speaker 1:We've had volcanic clouds in Iceland, we've had volcanoes, we've had earthquakes, we've had Chernobyl, we've had bombings. We've had everything, covid being by far the worst, and our office is in New York City. So we were three blocks from the world trade center on 9 11 and so, yeah, we've, we've had it all. Yeah, and yet we're still here and people are still traveling. During the dark days of world war ii, when hitler's armies were, you know, marching, marching across Europe, people were still going on vacation.
Speaker 1:Travel is not something that you give up. It is actually not a want, it is a need for most people. The question is, how much are they able to do physically, legally, monetarily? But people don't give up travel. That's number one. Number two they're not going to give up travel now.
Speaker 1:Now, there are going to be new restrictions. There are going to be, you know, places where you may not be able to get into. There are places we don't go. Now, you know, we were just asked to do a trip to Pakistan with military escort, and I'm like, just asked to do a trip to Pakistan with military escort and I'm like, no, I do leading-edge travel, but not bleeding-edge travel, and yet I would love to go to Pakistan someday. It's a beautiful country, but today is not the day for an American diplomatic group to be going to Pakistan. So there are all kinds of destinations.
Speaker 1:Iran is a beautiful country. Persian hospitality is famous. But you have to pick and choose your moments. I can't wait to go back to Iran. There will be a moment. Cuba, our closest neighbor to the south, 90 miles away from Key West. I've done 50 personally, 58 trips to cuba over the last 25 years. Wow, I have a foundation called the havana heritage foundation just to preserve the city of havana, and we're in conversations now about doing some preservation projects there, where we shipped three containers of books on historic preservation and architecture to Cuba recently. Who's sending books to Cuba in containers from the United States? I don't know. Maybe someone else is doing it, but I don't know who it is. But it's the kind of thing where you can do good in the world through travel. Travel is a force for good is a force for good. It's a force for connecting people and places and leaving the people you meet and the places you go to better off than before you went.
Speaker 1:That's not going to end. It's what drives me every day and I really believe that travel is a force for good and I'm always pleased to be part of it. And if I were a young person saying, what do I want to do with my life? Isn't that something you'd want to be associated with? It's not just about the dollars, it's about the people.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so wonderful to speak to someone who is so enlightened, informed and so outward looking and, especially at this time, an American and Canadian sitting down and having this conversation. It's wonderful, it's refreshing. I've thoroughly enjoyed it. I greatly appreciate the fact that you made time for me before and I couldn't be more thankful for you making time for me now, and I know that our audience is going to really benefit from this conversation. So I just wanted to say thank you very much for this and also I want to make sure that all of our listeners can connect with you and the team for future collaboration opportunities.
Speaker 1:So, if you mind leaving us with that, and then we'll be sure to keep in touch, Jim Well before I give you that, I have to say how much I've enjoyed this conversation and have somebody ask me these probing questions, because I don't frequently get a chance to talk to people and we don't really talk about our work. We do it, but we're very behind the scenes. We support the institutions we work with, whether it's the Metropolitan Museum of Art or Harvard or Brookings or the Council on Foreign Relations or whoever it is. We work with high-end institutions, so you never see my name on anything or hear my voice.
Speaker 1:Our company is located in New York. You can look at our website, arrangementsabroadcom, and the other one is themuseumtravelalliancecom, and so we're easy to find on the web. A lot of the trips we do are never on there because they're private. They're just for a board group or a trustee group, so you won't see everything about what we do, yeah, but we're very open to new collaborations with people all over the world and we're always looking for the latest, coolest products.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. Well, a lot of our listeners to our podcast, interestingly enough, are investors, a lot of VC firms, private equity firms, which I hear from afterwards. So I'll be intrigued to hear some of the reach outs that happen afterwards, because I'm sure a lot of people are going to be captivated with this conversation. I certainly have more questions that I'm keen to ask you about some of the trips you've organized, based on what you can share or you can't share, because you're a fantastic storyteller and you've obviously got a lot to offer. So, Jim, thank you again and I'll look forward to keeping in touch with you.
Speaker 1:Likewise Thank you.
Speaker 2:I now have the pleasure to speak to someone who I have just met, but I'm very keen to speak to, and he's been coming to ETC for over 15 years, which is amazing. He's based in New York City and he's the founder of Immersion Journeys. Rumi Meta thanks for joining us on Travel Trends. Thank you.
Speaker 7:Lovely to be here.
Speaker 2:It's great to have you here. I'm really keen to get your take on all things educational, travel, what's happening at ETC. But let's start with a bit about your background. So tell us how you got into tourism if you want to take us back that far. But specifically, I'm obviously keen to know a bit more about Immersion.
Speaker 7:Journeys. Sure, like most of us in this crazy world of travel, we all had former careers. I trained as an architect, I worked as an architect, I worked in construction, and then I got burned out and I decided I need to find something else in life. And I was born in Kenya, I grew up in Tanzania, so I did safaris all my life no way Amazing. So travel was sort of in my DNA and I decided to make a small pivot. And I had an opportunity, worked for somebody and decided man, I actually like this side of the business. And then, a few years later, I founded my own company, immersion Journeys in 2009. And so here we are in 2025.
Speaker 2:So tell us, give us I've got so many questions but tell us, give us an overview of Immersion Journeys and what you guys do.
Speaker 7:We are a small boutique tour operator. We design custom trips to Africa India, bhutan, nepal and Sri Lanka. That's our expert zone. That's all we do. Every now and then I'll do a plug for Europe if a friend asks me. But besides that we are thoroughly experts in the regions of East and Southern Africa and West Africa and India, bhutan, nepal and Sri Lanka.
Speaker 2:Got it. I think it's interesting, especially when you mentioned the small pivot no-transcript.
Speaker 7:I got introduced to her. She was from a particular college, wanted to help get a presence trip designed and talking to her she said have you ever been to ETC? And I didn't know what that is. And she said, well, you should come, almost 17 years ago because I skipped a few, showed up and been coming to ETC every year and sort of building my relationships with many schools, being also part of the community, also working with the ETC folks and being on panels and these kind of podcasts. Yeah, so becoming participants and a big advocate of educational travel, because we think there has to be an educational component in every travel thing. It's not just a checkbox, for sure.
Speaker 2:And how significant, and you don't have to give the exact numbers, but I'm genuinely curious because this is a world that is fairly new to me. I've been in the travel industry for more than 20 years, but educational travel is not a area I spent a lot of time in and it's my first ETC conference, and so understanding this whole ecosystem, how meaningful it is for you with immersion journeys like is it a significant amount of your business that comes through alumni programs?
Speaker 7:It is. It is. It's not a significant part of my business compared to some of my peers over here, but it is about 30%, 30%, 35% of my business Because we're small, we don't try to chase after every bit of business or we're not in the big volume business considering. We customize every trip for clients, so we're very strategic on who we work with, what they want to do, what the deliverables are and therefore, by default the volumes are not massive, but we're in a very comfortable sweet spot where we get approached for certain kind of trip planning and deliverables.
Speaker 2:So take us through some of those. I mean, that's where going back to your roots and the fact that take us through some of the itineraries that you specifically offer, the destinations you focus on.
Speaker 7:Yeah. So here a perfect example is in a few months I'll be doing I'll be actually escorting a trip to Kenya and the mandate came from the dean of the veterinary program of that particular school. Considering, you know, wanting to learn, sort of put them in front of conservation officers, conservation type schemes, sustainable tourism in the world of climate change and human wildlife conflict and all that. So we designed a trip to give them behind the scenes tours. That's who we are, what we're known for providing some of the more unique experiences. So the day in the life of Immersion Journey is planning for a particular school. That's starting with a what do you guys want? You came to us but what is it that you want out of a particular trip? And then we sort of design it based around that, depending on the budgets and number of days and when and how, and who is the faculty that's going to be sort of the host of that trip and what is typical group sizes? Typical group size will run anywhere from 10 to 20 people.
Speaker 7:These are not big groups considering the type of areas we go into. The lodges are small. The camps are small. It's also very focused. It's educational in a way, but it's a lot of fun. They still do the safari component, the adventure behind it, but we like to keep things in sort of bite-sized chunks. There's a lot of interaction with our guides. There's a whole learning experience behind that. Otherwise things get drowned out if there's a very big group.
Speaker 2:Yeah these kind of trips. Yeah, it's interesting because I mean we've on this uh podcast, this special spotlight from, etc. We've had a number of really fascinating conversations and you add a unique dimension to that because we've been talking about um cruising. Obviously there's been a few cruise suppliers here that do kind of luxury small ship or and so land tours. Obviously, that's part of my background and I love specifically Africa. Like we literally just finished doing an African safari series, nice and so and I've had the privilege to travel to Africa a couple of times and I can't wait to get back, and so I think the world needs to like there's a great line that you're probably familiar with If you could travel to two continents and go to Africa twice, right, and it's not till you go that you really get what that actually means, and it is. So tell us what are some of the trends that you're seeing in the travel industry as it relates to immersion journeys, educational travel. I'm genuinely keen to get your perspective on this.
Speaker 7:In the 15, 16 years that I've been involved in the ETC side I think the educational travel we've actually seen a lot of shifts in the way the universities are thinking and their clients or their donor base are thinking, their alums. They want the attention. They don't want hand-holding, necessarily, but they want something unique, Right. And I always tell people that when I'm designing an itinerary you've been to Africa, you went from A to B to C to D to E. That's the easy part, it's what happens between those points the extra, the spontaneity that comes with it, some of the experiences that clients face that were either pre-planned or not. So clients sort of in a weird way, kind of don't really expect it, but we can provide that and the demand for certain things like that has increased. Everybody wants to have an opportunity to go on a trip with us or similar trips, come back and talk to their friends about it. Look what I did and that is what the uniqueness, the pivots that we've started to see and how to create a unique trip based around that.
Speaker 2:And then ETC this year. Obviously, I'm sure every year is a little different, and last year was in Winnipeg.
Speaker 7:Yes, your home, your country, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:And, depending on the sequence of people listening, listening to sarah robinson joined us from tourism, winnipeg and she was going to highlight it to me. That was in winnipeg last year, uh, which was great to hear, but nevertheless, uh, clearly it moves around year to year. So if you wouldn't mind because one thing we actually haven't done with any of our guests is talk about the destinations that the conference has been before and then maybe kind of bring us up to speed with how you see Mobile and this destination and this year differing from events in the past.
Speaker 7:It is. And it's actually funny. You mention that because just the other week a friend of mine was asking me where I'm off to and I said I'm going to Mobile. He's like, oh, mobile from New York? Why? I said well, because I have a conference, et cetera. And I said well, because I have a conference, etc.
Speaker 7:And I said the advantage of coming to ETC is you see a new city that you probably wasn't even on your list to visit, I would never think about. Well, I really want to go visit Mobile. I would go to New Orleans because it's right next door, but Mobile why? So it's a great way to see America in a weird way and, more importantly, it is about seeing parts of the United States. And, granted, we went to Winnipeg last year. We had a Bermuda destination several years ago before COVID. I thought that was fascinating, yeah, and so you learn something about your backyard, literally. And that's what I coming to Mobile was. Huh, you know, I walked around, I walked around, I walked around neighborhood. There's a little bit of French influence here, based on the building architecture, since I'm from the architectural background.
Speaker 7:You know, the food, of course, is great. Of course I live in New York City, so why should I be talking about food?
Speaker 4:You can get beignets there, yeah, but not as good as over here or crawfish.
Speaker 7:So that is a great way to sort of learn and that's part of the ETC ecosystems that the city that is hosting you also should be part of the conversation when we're talking in panels or talking to our clients in the meetings.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then this year in particular, as obviously you've mentioned Mobile, which it's my first time here as well we're doing a food tour tonight. As I understand, and even when I was speaking to Mara and looking forward to coming, she was giving me a bit more context on the history Susan Black joined and she did the day before and went and did the tour, and I didn't have a chance to get here early for that. But, as you pointed out, this is a great way to explore America and to see parts of the country you wouldn't otherwise and so I see many benefits to the way that it moves around. I'm thrilled that it's here in Mobile, but the event this year we're sitting here together on day two. We're getting to the close of day two. Obviously, there's another big day tomorrow, but I'm genuinely keen to hear some of the highlights you've seen this year, whether it be the content or some of the partners speakers.
Speaker 7:What stood out to you this year so far? Well, every year there's a theme, and this year's theme is about collaboration and transformation and how to work as a team. It's a multi-legged stool. You have the operators, you have the ground teams and the guides, you have the travel planners, you have the universities. Um and I was on a panel earlier about you know how to get, you know how to make the hosts step up to the plate when they're, when they're hosting a trip, the faculty or someone, and how to enhance that to how to juice it up a little bit more, because that is how the universities stay in touch with their, their base, their alumni base. So I thought it was, uh, it was an interesting theme.
Speaker 7:Because, back to the pivot question, yeah, well, what are some of the things, the trends you're starting to see? Well, these are the trends, these are the things that people are expecting. Yeah, and and yes, you may be running, you may be a small travel program or you may be a very large one. So, small is six trips a year, up to 50 trips a year or more. But the question is are you providing certain trips that are unique, that will resonate, that will meet the university's credo or their mandate, whatever they have Right, and that's what we're beginning to see. I really kept a close ear on that this year.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, it's interesting and this is where it's valuable to get your perspective, given that you've got this great history of being involved with the organization and clearly you enjoy being here in the networking. But obviously, ultimately it has to be about the business opportunity, and that's the part that has stood out to me from the conversations, and also the bazaar, the international bazaar. Everyone has their booth set up. Tell us how that works. Were you doing the seven-minute meetings? Well, it's 15.
Speaker 7:Oh, 15. Okay, it's a little slower than a speed date.
Speaker 2:So what happens there?
Speaker 7:So this is where you're meeting some of your existing clients. You may see them in their offices if you're on a road trip. I also met with a couple of prospective clients who are looking into trips and, with my 15-year history, they pretty much know who I am. They're talking about 2020. They're programming for the next couple of years. So this is how it is. It's fun. It's time for everyone to catch up and start thinking of ideas and the idea. It's funny because everybody's like well, what's new, what's the trend, what's selling? In which countries are you selling more? Because everybody's looking around looking for ideas from their cohorts. For sure, yeah, yeah, exactly. And so that's my job now to sort of close the deal.
Speaker 2:Well, that's exactly why this is called Travel Trends, right? Because you, like me, that's what we're gravitating to is, we're trying to figure out what are the signals we should be paying attention to. So, on that topic, there's a couple last questions I had for you, and I also want to make sure that travel, obviously being a very important sector, do you see, obviously there's geopolitical factors we all need to be aware of, and up until very recently, it was just all systems go, and all of a sudden, now we're seeing some choppy waters, and so it's more important than ever that people are trying to figure out where people are traveling, what's the sentiment, what are some of the things that? How do you approach? That, I guess, is what I want to ask you. So it's not too timely, but how do you approach? You know, being at a conference like this is obviously one, but what are some of the other things that you do to make sure that your business is, you know, well positioned to navigate?
Speaker 7:those. It's a fantastic question because this is what we're beginning to see in the last few months, and a little bit of anxiety, choppy waters. You know where is the economy going. You know if you were in the bowl talk. This morning there was a whole conversation about people are living older and therefore their portfolios or their retirement portfolios have to last longer. People are definitely being affected by what's been going on in the world.
Speaker 7:What we try to do is we try to work very closely with the schools to say look, what are you? I mean, this year is a little bit early to tell where things are heading. But it's in the back of our minds to say, okay, if there's a trip opportunity next year, 2026, 2027, where might we be? What kind of pricing we need to worry about, what kind of things we need to talk about? So we're not scaring the potential traveler, because it's a loss to everybody the traveler, the school and us if nobody goes on a trip. And so we always try to keep our hand, our finger, on the pulse here and we can see what, if we can predict like, okay, this is where we think we might be going. The the very expensive high-end trip is now going to be probably dumbed down a little bit.
Speaker 7:We'll use a slightly cheaper properties and to keep things keep things on the cheap so yes we, we, we do keep things um, um, on on you know in in play when we're talking to our clients.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate that. Meta just had a friend just come by and I think she assumed we were on video so she jumped in to try and do a….
Speaker 7:She's one of my top clients. Oh, is that right, she's one of your clients.
Speaker 2:She jumped in for a photobomb moment.
Speaker 7:I think she was looking for the camera, but it's all audio.
Speaker 2:Anyway, that was nice and this is where it's really a community. Here at ETC. That's certainly what stood out to me. People care, they look out for each other and clearly you're well-connected in this community.
Speaker 2:One last thing I want to ask you and I want to make sure people can follow up with you, and this is about your travel plans on a personal level, because I'm sure you, like me, love traveling. Clearly, like that's obviously a passion for you. You've decided to, you know, switch up careers and be in this space, so that this is something that consumes you and you're obviously you wouldn't be in it if you didn't love people and love travel. So I find for me that it's restorative to go and have a great trip, because it takes you out of the business side of it and actually puts you in and kind of gives you a reminder of this is why we do what we do, and you were starting to highlight that about being in Mobile, and so I guess I was just keen to ask you what travel plans you have on a personal level for 2025.
Speaker 7:Well, I just came back from an Antarctica cruise which is absolutely fabulous. It went down with a little bit of trepidation because I'm not a cruise guy, but then realized it is very much like a safari. Who did you go with? Do you mind me asking?
Speaker 2:I went with Atlas. Okay.
Speaker 7:And it was a personal trip.
Speaker 7:Yeah, yeah, that's great I'm heading actually to a personal trip meets business trip to Botswana because I have to part know part of my, our job is to keep the quality control going, so we're inspecting lodges and camps. These are people we use all the time. These are partners in the business, so we're going to go and check out places. My wife is joining me, so it's a little bit of a holiday, so we're doing a little bit of that. So I can, I can. The nice thing about our business is we can combine business with pleasure, as long as the business side doesn't supersede the pleasure.
Speaker 7:Otherwise it would be a nightmare to you, constantly working otherwise.
Speaker 2:Well, the reason I jumped in so quickly on the Antarctic is that one of our other guests on this podcast who works for National Geographic, Lindblad Expeditions. He just came back from the Antarctic and he was telling us how extraordinary it was and it's a place I'm keen to go. So clearly you had an amazing experience absolutely amazing.
Speaker 7:Yeah, and limb blood. I would say hands down would be one of the. If I ever went back again, I would try limb blood, no fair enough, but botswana.
Speaker 2:So botswana is high up on my list for many reasons. Obviously they got incredible uh camps there and uh some amazing luxury safarisaris and some really unique terrain, and so Botswana for me. So I'm going to be keen to know but you've been before, have you yes multiple times.
Speaker 7:Okay, yes, yes. So you know that area quite well. Yes, very much so. Absolutely fabulous country.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fantastic. Well, rumin, obviously I've enjoyed meeting you. I'm really keen to keep in touch with you. Well, rumin, obviously I've enjoyed meeting you. I'm really keen to keep in touch with you. I want to make sure that our audience can as well.
Speaker 7:So if you wouldn't mind sharing the best ways to connect with you after this, you can go on our website immersionjourneyscom. You can call me at 917-686-2620. You can WhatsApp me on that same number. I'm a 24-7 entrepreneur here, so happy to take your calls.
Speaker 2:That's bold it. I'm a 24-7 entrepreneur here, so happy to take your calls. That's bold.
Speaker 7:It's one thing to give an email address, but, man, my email address is too long, so you just call me, it's fine.
Speaker 2:Let's see your WhatsApp light up over the next few days when this launches.
Speaker 1:Hopefully, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, with new business, but no, it's a real pleasure to meet you Absolutely.
Speaker 7:This was fun. Yeah, I look forward to keeping in touch.
Speaker 2:I'm joined by another first timer who I had the privilege to sit in his presentation yesterday. His name is Mateo Luthi and he's the managing director at Journey Mexico. He's based in Cancun and this is his first ETC, like me, so welcome, mateo. Great to have you on the Travel Trends podcast here.
Speaker 6:Thank you very much and hello everyone, and it's a pleasure being here. Thank you, Dan.
Speaker 2:Well, I certainly enjoyed the conversation you were having, especially because mexico and canada, certainly at the moment, given everything that's going on in the world there's a lot of kinship between our two countries and I thought the session that you were highlighting was really fascinating for all the listeners in the room because you were talking about the challenges of perception in a destination and I work with the team, uh, as a tour operator in colombia and actually juliana, the ce of perception in a destination, and I work with the team as a tour operator in Colombia, and actually Juliana, the CEO, was in the room at the same time and poor Colombia kept getting brought up as another example of a destination that, having a troubled past, people have a negative perception, which unfortunately sometimes is the case with Mexico or it could be with Canada.
Speaker 2:But so tell us a little bit, mateo, about that session yesterday. People have heard from Michael from Purdue, matteo, about that session yesterday. People have heard from Michael from Purdue, who was on that panel as well, but I would love to hear your, I guess, summary of the session yesterday and some of the key points that you wanted to share with the audience about that topic.
Speaker 6:Yes, absolutely. Thank you very much and it was, I think, a very successful session. We got a lot of questions and even after the session we continued talking about, as you know, I mean the situation in Mexico has not changed. I mean it's really a question of how everything is perceived. So it's very strange. Strange, you know, because beforehand everybody traveled during the pandemic, because mexico was open, I mean, a lot of canadians came down and and everybody came to the beaches and nobody really wondered if it was safe or not. I mean they just traveled right.
Speaker 6:And now suddenly president changes in us and suddenly, oh no, you know what, maybe we shouldn't travel to the. To me, so it was weird. It was weird on that side, but I feel it's a lot of perception. So we talked about the perception, we talked about that. Also the distance. I mean it's a really large country like Canada, which is huge. I mean, if something happens in downtown Toronto, it doesn't mean that you cannot travel to Vancouver or Whistler for skiing, you know. And those are the same questions we get, you know. So there were actually questions raised about geographical knowledge and history, about what we can improve as tour operator, you know, to the global market.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Now, that was fascinating. I learned a lot from your session. Global market yeah, no, that was fascinating. I learned a lot from your session. Even in use that example yesterday, when you're talking about the size of Mexico, is like Western Europe and something happens in Spain and people are not going to go to the Netherlands, and obviously that that sounds ridiculous, but it's to your point. And this is where, when headlines get on the news and any destination can be subject to this and I've certainly seen it in all many years over travel industry is that as soon as it hits the headlines, all of a sudden travelers stop coming until it gets off the headlines and eventually travel comes back.
Speaker 2:But certain destinations, if they've experienced war or conflict, there's different reasons that it takes a while to come back, and Michael was highlighting some destinations. It literally takes a generation. Absolutely, it can take 20 years to come back. Yes, yes, I think. Fortunately for both of us, we have two great countries with so much to offer that obviously things will fluctuate, but ultimately people are going to go to Mexico and people are going to travel to Canada. So let's talk about Journey Mexico and the organization that you represent and what brings you to ETC. So tell us, I guess, first a little bit about Journey Mexico, your role and what you guys do.
Speaker 6:Well, journey Mexico. We started actually off in 2003. And we are three partners and the main founder, zachary Rabinor and his wife, rebecca Scotti. They started actually in a garage in San Diego.
Speaker 6:So, the idea was to offer, showcase Mexico's true value, and that's not necessarily the beaches, because I mean beaches are anywhere. Even in Canada we can find beautiful beaches in the summer and so we decided to go actually inland, you know, show like the roots, the Aztec or Mixtec or Zapotec or Mayan cultures, and then with that also all the colonial cities and the gastronomy and this. So obviously, 20 years ago that was quite new. Right now it's much more present and people travel to Mexico City, to these wonderful places, and we absolutely are excited about being in Mexico, showing you Mexico the true values. And there is many, many things, but just as a fact, I mean the UNESCO World Heritage Sites. You might know what this all is, but Mexico has like 58 of those, so it's number eight in the world and in all of the Americas it's number one. I mean I think the United States are second place in the American continent North and South America they have 21. So I mean it is a lot and therefore I mean you can imagine.
Speaker 6:So what we are looking for is to really showcase the travelers when they come, to give them like a learning experience that they bring back something. They learned something new, something, they learned something new. So it can be being with like a local community, or it can be like an off-hour visit of the Anthropology Museum in Mexico City, or it can be anything, but it must be something meaningful. For example, families, you know, going to an archaeological site for small children is probably not the most exciting things. But what if we offer, like, a scavenger hunt? So the parents are there and we design a scavenger hunt, so the kids are actually really enjoying running up and down and they are always close to us because they go along with the guide, you know, and then they find this treasure, you know, which usually is like a little aloosh, which is like a leprechaun, which we do like in Yucatan, but it's very special, you know. So we explain that and so they bring this little puppet back home. So that's like the idea is this Sustainable travel is another very important factor, because I think more and more people are asking us to give back, to help communities, to help natural environments, and so we do have these projects already set up and actually today we were announced in Travel and Leisure as the number one company in the Americas doing it.
Speaker 6:So we're also B Corp certified, so we are doing a lot for the community. We're doing a lot for Mexico, and we are doing it not because we want to do it, because we genuinely believe in these things. So that's basically what Journey Mexico is, so a true insider access with friends, good guides and it's all around. So I mean, basically, if you travel with us, you don't have to worry about it and everything is tailor-made to your needs.
Speaker 2:Congratulations on that recognition, well deserved.
Speaker 2:And the other thing I would just highlight too, from your comments there about the dna and the ethos of journey mexico is very much in sync from what I've come to experience here at etc and some of the feedback we had as I was preparing for my keynote.
Speaker 2:We interviewed about seven people in advance of the conference and one of the recurring themes is people just love being in this industry. That's their true passion is to be in this travel space, and so it's not purely a profit motive but clearly we need to generate business and we need to bring in new clients. So I just thought I'd make that connection because clearly that's something that's standing out to me, how special this community is, that connection, because clearly that's something that's standing out to me, how special this community is. So, on that note, I guess, mateo, given it's your first ETC and understanding that background about Journey Mexico, what are some of the things that have stood out to you so far about the benefits of being part of this community, whether it be some of the networking opportunities, the presentations you've been able to be a part of, what have been some of the standout highlights already for you?
Speaker 6:I feel that this is something. This is a very good question, dan, because I feel this is something we have to address with the younger generation. They probably even my mother doesn't really understand what I'm doing and it's actually funny, you know but I do feel we have to work. We have to transmit this better because, honestly, this is not the work. This is a lifestyle. I mean, if you're looking to work from eight to six or something like that, or not working on Saturdays or Sundays, this is probably not the work you are looking for to do. But you get so much back. Like ETC, it is my first time, but I feel like it's my 10th time because after two days, I know everyone, I know how to work.
Speaker 6:I have been in many of these uh, trade shows, you know, and so it's always fascinating that we all have the same passion we all have. We are the same. I call it tribe that go around. You know we are, we are like nomads, we are explorers, we know what we want and you speak with a guy from Tunisia and you probably don't even know, or from Bhutan, and suddenly you learn new things.
Speaker 6:So we have to make this a much larger and much stronger community and showcase it to the world and then make sure that the younger generation also fit into this to this part, because that's probably one of the new challenges we will have because, honestly, as you can see in this etc. There are not much young people there. Everybody's like at a certain age. You know, I'm 53, so I feel also I'm like on the older part and I mean I started like with 25, 23, joining these meetings and it was obviously a different vibe and a different area. But now I mean I'm 53, you know, and I don't see these 20 or 30-year-old people walking around in this ETC or in other travel shows. So this is very important and I feel that could be a highlight for them, you know, to work with us or for the travel industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting. You mentioned that because Ian Kynor, who joined this on this special spotlight episode as well, was talking about the fact that there's a mentorship and a mentee program, and I have seen there's only a few younger people I would say younger people, people in their 20s that look like they're, you know, starting out in their career. People, I would say younger people, people in their 20s that look like they're starting out in their career, and I was encouraged to see the people that I did see because, as you said, the average age is definitely 50 plus, but there's certainly a lot that that younger generation can benefit from the elders that are here, that can impart their knowledge and their wisdom and really understand the value of truly human connection, because one of the things that's come up as a theme in these conversations is community and connection, and that's why people are coming back to ETC and, as you mentioned, I mean people have been coming for many years. I think at the welcome reception last night, the number of people got up there, you know there was four people that spoke and they'd been coming for at least 20 years and obviously this has been around for over 30. And many of these people have known each other for a long period of time and so clearly, yes, there's an opportunity to bring more people in and hopefully, people listening to this and hearing that call to action from you like there's a huge amount of benefit for younger people in the travel industry to come to ETC.
Speaker 2:So, but in terms of some of the other sessions or I know you also have some of the one-on-ones and the various workshops what are some of the other things that? Again, this is all new for me, so I'm very keen to get your perspective about what are some of the other benefits of being here at ETC. You mentioned the networking, for sure, but, yeah, is there anything else that has stood out to you that is unique about this conference?
Speaker 6:else that has stood out to you that is unique about this conference, I think. Uh, in general, I feel like, well, the networking, as you already mentioned. But I feel another thing that is really, really important is the part that we all want to help each other, you know. So we start like talking maybe not even with with clients, but with co-workers or co-people that also work, that do our job, maybe in Greece or in Tunisia or in Bhutan or in any other places. So suddenly we start like talking oh, what do you do when you have this situation, or how can we improve certain orders?
Speaker 6:So I think those showcases are really valuable and, at the end of the day, it's a lot about connections. You know it's not about business one-to-one. I mean like, or I have two groups sold and I go back home, you know it's more about the connections and and the people will think about you. Or if they have some seat to mexico, eventually they will think about journey, mexico, right, oh, that's a company I want to go because, oh, they had they, they nailed it, all those points, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, one of the other things I'm keen to ask you is private groups, and Douglas Quinby, who runs Arrival, just caught up in ITB recently and on his presentation he was showing that prior to the pandemic, private groups was about 17% and now, of people that have been in a private group, is about 17% of travelers and now it's more like 47%. Yes, and so I was keen to know what have you seen Because that was certainly a trend during the pandemic or at the end of the pandemic that people were, you know, for all the reasons necessary, traveling with private groups. But even now, I think, from my experience, mateo is that more and more people discover they could travel private and if they get the right number of people together, they can create a private trip. So tell us, if you wouldn't mind, whether it be private groups, some of the other trends that you're paying attention to that you're seeing in travel to Mexico.
Speaker 6:Well, I mean, we were really blessed and we were lucky for once in Mexico, so we didn't have any problems at all. I mean, everybody was traveling to Mexico because it was one of the few countries they could travel to, and people they travel because they want to travel, it's a necessity, it's not like a luxury item. So people love traveling and coming to Mexico was really important. So we studied ways on how do we could achieve even better ways, and one of these was exactly the private travel. So we designed private jet travels so that they could travel in like in 10 days, all over mexico, which is a huge country. Yeah, as you know, so it's like uh, and so we were doing like three days, maybe in Cancun and then we were flying to Chichen Itza and then we were flying into the center of the country and then we were in Baja California, los Cabos. But that could be done with the private jet, you know. So it's easy to travel and suddenly it wasn't so expensive because people were actually gathering together, so we were talking like groups of eight, ten people and they didn't know each other. So, like five couples, a nice guide and super highlighted experiences in each of these destinations and it was magnificent. So we were really selling these trips easily and the people wanted to do them. So private travel is definitely something great.
Speaker 6:Right now we are struggling again on selling it because there are so many new opportunities for for people to travel, you know, and so they are going back to europe or back to any other destinations they want to.
Speaker 6:They want to go, you know. But I feel private travel is still very on and specifically like that specific niche. You know, we see, like gastronomy, people that want to go out with specific chefs and then they want to go, like to the community where they were growing up. These chefs so that's a different and the markets and all of that side. Or like whale watching, you know, like nature events. You know we have a fantastic whale watching in Baja California or the monarch butterflies in Michoacán, in Mexico City area. So it's all like specifically detailed trips that we can offer. So, from that side, private groups are very, very important and they are growing more and more. So I think right now, speaking in ETC that's my leads the most of the leads are exactly for those, for the private groups that are looking to get these special treatments and not traveling like in large motor coaches with 60 or 70 people, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly no, that's really fascinating, and I also want to go back to the fact that you mentioned FIT as well. But just before we do, if people are looking to engage with you, because it may be the case that you don't meet everybody here and someone listens to this podcast afterwards in a second, I didn't. I didn't get to attend mateo session. We didn't get to meet. We're there. I always find it amazing when you've been to a conference for three or four years and you meet someone that has been the same and you haven't met yet, because, I mean, even there's 300 people. You just can't possibly meet everyone in just a few days. And um so, for anyone who's listening to this, that is interested in the group side of the business or the alumni whether it be people from the event or any of our global listeners that might be interested where should they go for more information, to connect with you and to learn more about Journey Mexico?
Speaker 6:Well, we have a website, but I think probably the easiest is to shoot me an email. So my email is Matteo, with double T, so that's M-A-T-T-E-O at journeymexicocom. So write me and I will be more than glad to answer any questions and put you together either with one of my travel planners, but, even better, let's jump on a call. So that's the best thing to do.
Speaker 2:And I'm sure you're going to get a few CVs at that email address as well for people who want to work with you, especially when you live in an epic place like Cancun and Matteo was mentioning to me that he's a diver and this is where you've got a great role with a great company and you've obviously found a great lifestyle, and this is where the stars align and you can willingly take a call on a Saturday or Sunday because it's the right lifestyle.
Speaker 6:Absolutely.
Speaker 2:But the other thing I wanted to go back to just before we wrap up is FIT. I mean, it is a growing segment of our audience and we are working actively to grow the B2C side and we're actually going to be introducing a new series of podcasts focused on destination spotlights, and so we are seeing that more and more listeners are intrigued when we talk about certain destinations and obviously I love travel, so I'm always keen and I could chat with you for another half an hour just about Mexico and get your guidance and advice for myself, my family and our friends and all the people I know that are keen to travel to Mexico. So we can come back to that. But people who are looking for an FIT experience how do they connect with you? Is it the same way they email?
Speaker 6:you directly. Yeah, it's absolutely the same way. We right now have a groups department, which is very little, but we have to make it more robust. But it's definitely the same way, on the same email, and I will redirect them. It will be very important to understand why are you coming down or what are your expectations in order to really fine-tune and get you also the right guide, because that's another very important thing, because it's not just like our guides are specifically trained for specific needs and for specific adventures or for explorations that you need, you know. So I think it's it's also another thing that stands out with us, and training of the right guides is very important because the experiences need to be not just good, they need to be extraordinary, and once again, it's that if not, you don't learn, you don't link in, you know, and that's very important for us.
Speaker 2:Totally, mateo. I'd like you to leave our listeners and myself too, for that matter with a hidden gem in Mexico that many people may not be familiar with, or, even if they are, that you'd like to highlight that in 2025 is a compelling reason to travel to Mexico. But if you had to narrow it down to one area city experience that you would highlight to our listeners that they can quickly get online after this and discover it for themselves and learn more. But, yeah, where would you point them towards?
Speaker 6:I would say well, that's a very good question. You got me there. Yeah, as you said, there are many, but I would say an area that we are working right now, um, I would say, go to with the yucatan peninsula, you know, around merida. Yeah, we have found some caves that national geographics are actually exploring and they are very, very old I mean more than 3 000 years old and you can go and explore those caves with Mayan guides and then with the Mayan shaman. That's something really amazing. I will send you a picture of it because that's just a wonder, wonderful experience to to do, and it's a it's in Merida, so it's very close by. So awesome.
Speaker 2:I'll make sure that we post it on our social channels as well. We'll include that so that people can find it. And the one for me, mateo isaxaca.
Speaker 2:I'm desperately keen to get to Oaxaca and I'm a huge fan of markets, so I'll be reaching out to you for some suggestions on that. But, mateo, it's been a real pleasure to meet you. I'm glad we had this time to sit down together, talk about Mexico and make this connection, and I certainly am encouraged to hear how business is going, and I want to see that you continue to succeed. So I certainly wish you and the team all the best for 2025 and beyond.
Speaker 6:Thank, you, dan, and thank you all to listen and, as we always say, mi casa es su casa, my house is your house. So come on and visit.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, I now have the privilege to sit down with Michael Luongo, who I had an opportunity to attend one of his sessions yesterday. It was really fascinating. We'll talk a little bit more about that, but he's a PhD at Purdue University. But he's also an author, a journalist, and he has a lot to offer in the world of travel, as I discovered yesterday. So I was keen for him to join us as part of this podcast. So, michael, great to have you on Travel Trends. Thanks for joining us, thank you, thank you, dan, thank you. One of the things I didn't get to ask you yesterday is your background with ETC. Have you been to these events before? What is your connection to this community?
Speaker 9:No, this is the first time I've been here. Mara reached out to me I had done a talk in Atlanta I'm going to blank on the name of the conference but it was about social justice, about the environment, peace and tourism and you know I'd spoken at that and Mara had kind of seen that I'd spoken at that and kind of invited me into this and we were trying to figure out the different ways I would be able to contribute to this.
Speaker 2:That's cool, because I mean, there's only a couple of people that are featured on this series, that are first timers here at ETC, because many of the people, as our listeners have heard from these conversations, have been part of this organization or been attending for 10, 15, 20 years.
Speaker 2:right, it's amazing. So what brought you to ETC this year? And obviously Mara reached out to you and she saw you speak elsewhere, but I guess what drew you to this event? And obviously the session that I attended yesterday? I want you to be able to share what you were talking about and some of the takeaways. But, yeah, what drew you here, aside from the connection with Mara?
Speaker 9:Well, I think I'm part of a university, I'm at Purdue, I'm a PhD student in the tourism school. I also teach in the communication department. So this idea also that it's the educational travel consortium you know I have not yet taught study abroad. I'd love to do that. I always have these conversations about it. I'm very familiar with the alumni groups and how they travel and again, it's one of those things where people say, hey, maybe we'll bring you along to, and that hasn't happened. But you know, I think here I've been on two panels and so yesterday was looking at difficult locations to travel to. You know, my research is on Iraq, afghanistan, rwanda, ukraine, very difficult places in war-torn tourism. Today was the breaking barriers, the diversity one. So those are two of my areas of expertise and that's what Mara wanted me to have that broad journalistic but also academic view on these things. And I think journalism you really look at many, many more countries and much more broadly at things.
Speaker 2:Yeah for sure.
Speaker 2:No, that's really great context and that obviously connects to the session that I really enjoyed seeing you a part of and a few of your colleagues there like Susan Black was in the session and you had Journey Mexico and there was a number, but your comments really stood out to me.
Speaker 2:You went first, obviously, but part of the highlights actually I'll give you the floor to share them. Of the highlights, actually, I'll give you the floor to share them because obviously these are your points. But I was just going to connect with our audience that after the presentation, you and I had a really fascinating conversation. That stood out to me because we were talking about places like Rwanda and just some of the geopolitical factors that don't necessarily make the headline news and when you're trying to understand trade issues and some of the complexities to our modern world, some of the things you were highlighting to me that I really found intellectually stimulating is that there's more going on there, but on the surface, the topic was about destinations that are challenged by their perception and you started going right into places like Iraq and these places Ukraine that you're supposed to travel to.
Speaker 9:So tell our listeners a little bit about the purpose of yesterday's talk and some of the things that you highlighted in that conversation okay, um, so it was quite a broad conversation and I, you know, as a journalist, we go to places that most quote-unquote normal travelers are not going to go to. So you know, right away, you know most travelers are not going to go to iraq, they're not going to go to ukraine, they're not going to go to these places. Maybe they could go to kurdistan in the north, which is much safer now. Most of iraq is generally safe. This, this out from the war.
Speaker 9:But among the things we talked about are what are the ways you can get to understand a country that is in conflict better as a traveler and educate yourself, and among those things are to visit border regions where refugees might be or people have temporarily settled. You can go to a restaurant, like we talked about Kurdish restaurants and how you can do that in Turkey and get an idea of the. You know Kurdistan is the largest it would be the largest ethnic group without its country. You know you can speak to Iraqi refugees in Jordan Jordan is very safe Switzerland of the Middle East and these ways in which you can get a better understanding, keep yourself safe, but have a better understanding of the geopolitics, the wars, wars that we, the US are involved in have. Perhaps you could say we caused them in many ways, particularly with Iraq, and this way you know more than what is in the headlines. You really get a very personal view of what it is like for those people who have escaped from war.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, one of the things you pointed out too, the point you're making, merrill about the border towns like that, even though a destination Iraq being a great example you shared that there's a concern about safety, understandably, in some areas of the country. However, Kurdistan, as you highlighted, was actually one of the safest places to be able to travel. If you want to go to Iraq now, you can go to southern Iraq. You're also highlighting that people traveling to Ukraine are traveling via Poland and going through Krakow.
Speaker 2:And I thought this was really interesting just in terms of actually trying to help travelers understand how this travel is occurring. For executives, for diplomats, and a lot of these countries, as you well know, they're trying to prepare themselves for the tourism that will come on the other side and they're dealing with these negative perceptions of a destination.
Speaker 2:I still remember what it was like when we went to vietnam and this is 15, 20 years ago to what my in-laws perceptions of vietnam were, you know. And so, because they associate it with the war and even though that was like 50 years ago now, um, it's still the images are that they associate um with that. That region and Iraq is much the same. We know these destinations as conflict zones that were presented to us on the nightly news, not as places that you would otherwise go for a holiday. So, yeah, I loved the session. So how did you get into this space? Tell us about your background in journalism and how you decided to specialize in this area.
Speaker 9:So I mean one of the things you know, going back a little bit to the perception, it can take up to 20 years, a whole generation. And it's one of the things I talked I did a TEDx talk on this and and it's one of those things where I want to know who the early travelers are and why they come and if we can understand that better. But you know, I had been to conflict zones, if you want to. My first trip to Israel and Palestine was in the aftermath of the Oslo Accords, so I went in 1996. I was getting my master's in urban planning at Rutgers. I was actually researching gay tourism back then and so a lot of my work, my early work, was on gay tourism, but I was always interested in locations that people were worried about going to. I went to Turkey in 1998, and the idea of Midnight Express was still something that people and eventually I interviewed the guy from Midnight Express. So perception and worries about fear, but it really was 9-11.
Speaker 9:I'm from New York Actually I'm from New Jersey, originally, grew up on the Jersey Shore with the whole idea of tourism as something you grow up with. But I was on a cleanup crew, rescue crew, a few days after 9-11 with my then brother-in-law, and that experience of digging for dead bodies, digging for dead New Yorkers in the rubble of the Twin Towers, was transforming and it made me think. I said to myself, I thought of Beirut, even though I had not yet been to Beirut, and the idea of images of rubble that people were digging through, which we now see in Gaza, which we now see in Ukraine, which we now see in many places, but I knew we would be launching wars from this. But I knew we would be launching wars from this and, as somebody who covered travel and LGBT issues in particular, my view was how can I use those niches of mine that I was an expert in and look at war? So it was through this lens of rebuilding tourism and also LGBT and human rights issues.
Speaker 2:That's really fascinating. I'm going to ask I just want to ask you about LGBTQ for a moment, because we've certainly on our podcast. Danny Guerrero joined us and he really educated me and even now we work together in the travel industry and he is an advocate in the community and he's educated me considerably and we had a great episode where he educated our listeners. And one of the things I wanted to ask you just on this topic is that, when we think about certain destinations this came up really recently with our African Safari series is that there are certain countries that are not known to be gay-friendly or just haven't legalized gay marriage, and just what an important consideration this is for the gay community to decide what destinations you're going to travel to, based on the comfort level. So the reason I want to ask you this question is we sit here in 2025, obviously, dei is under attack. We see pride festivals we were talking about that yesterday.
Speaker 2:It was another part of the conversation I was really enjoying having with you is like all these issues that are cropping up in the world.
Speaker 2:So, given that it seemed as though we were making so much progress, are you seeing that again as another issue that needs to be highlighted to you know, to help the destinations understand how better to market to that community to make sure that they feel welcome. Because this was the that's the big insight for me I just wanted to share it with listeners was that because you don't, even if you don't, specifically advocate for the LGBT community, when you don't do that, you're not making them feel welcome because there's actually, as opposed to just assuming so if you're not in that community and this is where I've started to understand all the importance of being able to market effectively, as opposed to saying, well, of course, you're welcome, it's, it's like, actually, you need to be more explicit about it. So, yeah, so I just I would love to get your take on this, since you have great expertise there's so many ways I could answer that question, but I think a few quick things that I'll say.
Speaker 9:Um, you know, I was on cnn because you're canadian you know, canada had issued a warning. They didn't explicitly say Texas and Florida, but we know that that's what they were referring to this idea that it might not be safe for their LGBTQ citizens.
Speaker 9:This is before all of the issue now with the 51st state and all of that stuff. You know that while we in the United States think that we're very advanced in LGBTQ rights, this is very uneven and even in a city like New York there can be so many problems. But you often have, like in Florida, fort Lauderdale, miami, all of these great gay LGBT. You know they're in red states, they're in states that overall have problems, so there are these bubbles. The other thing that I would point out is and it's interesting, you mentioned this so Ronnie Weiss from Travel Unity. I interviewed him for a Gay City News piece after the New York Travel and Adventure show or during the show, and one of the things that he pointed out is that, if you know, when places discriminate against LGBTQ people, it also sets this. You know they came for me, they came for them, they came for well. Then, if I'm a little bit different in any way, this is a place I'm going to avoid.
Speaker 9:So I think now, more than ever though with trans people under attack, lgbtq rights under attack. Trump has now taken away money from UPenn for transgender issues. So everywhere is under attack. So if you want this particular market, you probably do need to be a little bit more explicit, and that can be the ad itself. That can be where you place the ad. So it's right now.
Speaker 9:Everything is in such flux that places that you considered safe are not safe. You may be the West, who has a lot of money and privilege to go on a safari. Then this brings up all kinds of ethical issues At the same time. You may be able to have conversations with somebody who is gay in Uganda about what that experience is like, and if you boycott a location, then you will not have that conversation. So this is really really complicated. It's multifaceted, but unfortunately we will see that the whole world will be this sort of dividing along LGBTQ lines, dividing on all kinds of lines, where some places will need to set themselves apart as safe havens because so many places we considered safe aren't safe in the way that they used to be, and so this moment that we're in is really transforming many things.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I appreciate you sharing that and obviously going there in our conversation, just because you know I do have a number of friends and colleagues who are now questioning their travel plans. And a friend who's transgender now actually has made a strong effort to raise this issue wherever he goes, because he's decided he's just going to speak out, he's going to be vocal and he's going to wear shirts and it's just like and all the power to him. But many people are having different reactions and trying to navigate this new time.
Speaker 2:But that literally could be a podcast unto itself and we'll have to have you back for that discussion. But to bring us back to ETC and what brings us both here, I would love to hear what I brings us both here. I would love to hear what. I know you've been attending a number of sessions and clearly I attended yours yesterday and really benefited from it. But what are some of the other sessions you've been attending? What are some of the other benefits you've seen so far from your first ETC conference?
Speaker 9:Well, I mean the networking, the talking with people from different universities. I still haven't met the Purdue person who's here, but we've only, like Zoom, you know, had a Zoom call and I haven't met her yet here physically. I think I've never been to Alabama before for one. So that's something I'm very much looking forward to Africatown and seeing. I wish I was here for the day of that training about the boat and that history. So, you know, one of the conversations was about language. There was just a session that I went to about how you bring up topics, how you have discussions with people. We talked about it in the Breaking Barriers, but this was more workshoppy, where they had specific examples, and so that's one of the things Talking with people about how they're navigating this whole issue with DEI. There's so many different things that I could tell you about what I have learned.
Speaker 2:So clearly you're glad you came. You're getting enough benefit from it. I'm assuming you're going to be back.
Speaker 9:Yes, I hope to yeah, I hope to yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm keen for people to know more about you. Obviously, this conversation is far too brief for the substance that you can absolutely offer, so I'm going to make a commitment, michael, to having you back on the show we will find a great opportunity to to bring you back.
Speaker 2:I'm sure our audience will absolutely want that. So, but just in terms of being able to connect with you, find out more information about your books, what you're working on, how can people connect with you, michael, and learn more and stay in touch with you until we have you back?
Speaker 9:So I'll give you my website, which I definitely need to update. Everybody says it looks so 1990s, your website, but it still works. Michaelluongocom, m-i-c-h-a-e-l-l-u-o-n-g-ocom, or just Google me, you know, those are ways to stay in touch with me and find out what I'm doing.
Speaker 2:Cool, and we were joking yesterday because Roberto Longo is a famous hockey player. It turns out that Michael is actually related to him. I am related.
Speaker 9:Everybody would joke. You know, and Canadians know the last name. And then I went to our ancestral village and a French Canadian, a Montrealer, answered the door and explained, and I'm like, oh, I actually am related to Roberto Longo.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's awesome. And you weren't so 90s as to say www.
Speaker 1:So that was actually. I'll give you credit for that.
Speaker 2:The website may be slightly out of date, but you're certainly not so thank you for making the time for this, Michael.
Speaker 9:Obviously.
Speaker 2:I really enjoyed meeting you here. Yes, I did as well I look forward to keeping in touch and wish you continued success with your PhD.
Speaker 9:And, yeah, let's have you back soon. Great, thank you, dan.
Speaker 2:Thank you Appreciate it. I have the chance now to regroup after the event with Mara, the founder of ETC, and I'm so keen to make sure that she was a part of this conversation because I want all of our listeners to understand the backstory, because there's an amazing story about how Mara created this conference in the first place and she's very much a passionate traveler and I also want to get her highlights from this year. So, mara, welcome to Travel Trends. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 5:Thank you, Dan. It's a pleasure to be on air with you.
Speaker 2:Likewise, and I just wanted to start by saying thank you again for bringing me into the conference this year. It was wonderful to meet the community. It was terrific to have that opportunity to give a presentation on AI but, most importantly, to meet you and to get to know this amazing organization. So thanks again for having me this year.
Speaker 5:Dan, I think your talk was a highlight. I mean, we were sending it out now, as you know, to everyone, so high in demand. I think there's an encore planned.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's wonderful. I'm thrilled to hear that. And, yes, as you kindly mentioned, we actually have posted the video that you and the team had captured and edited and we posted it on our YouTube channel. So, if anyone wants to see the highlights from this incredible conference and we actually got a chance to close the event together as well and share some highlights but, yeah, no, that was a huge highlight for me and that's why I want to have you as part of the conversation. So let's actually start with the origin story, because I spent a number of hours getting familiar with the organization, and there's this amazing article and a wonderful picture of you on a boat with an old school computer way back in the day, bringing this whole organization together. So tell us how it all got started.
Speaker 5:Well, it got started. Actually, I worked with an organization or a tour company that did about 80% of the Smithsonian travel programs. So I became passionate about really taking a focus on educational travel. But it really began way back when I lived in Athens, greece, for a year and I realized that learning in situ, learning in the field, was about the most important way to really absorb history, life, art, whatever. So I decided at that point that I would go into tourism, but I didn't know the direction. So working with this program since Smithsonian was really helpful.
Speaker 5:And so I was in the Caribbean and that's where I came up with the idea with a colleague of mine that had worked with from the Denver Museum of Natural History. We had worked together for a long time. I said let's do this conference. It was never meant to be a three decade event, but we started that way and I started it off a boat on what I would call the first luggable. They called it a luggable at that point Computer. I ran it off a wind bugger for the energy, and that's how the conference started. Of course, that was never shared initially because that was a little bit out there, but today it would not be. I was always looking for office in a box, but today you would certainly have that off a phone, but at that point there was no GPS whatever. So I was in Venezuela and all the way up to about three years at sea, and that's where I ran the conference from Well such an inspiring story.
Speaker 2:You're so ahead of your time. It's remarkable, yeah, but please continue on the journey and also let everyone know where you're based now.
Speaker 5:I'm based. I've been based for three decades in Montana and I've just made a shift to Northern Florida. But I'm actually in Montana right now as we're recording, but my team is here, but I do go to Florida but then of course, as you, I'm on the road a lot so I can't say I'm. I think wherever I am is my home in a sense, but certainly would get back to those sailing days. They were great.
Speaker 5:So the conference grew in maturity and certainly demanded a lot more of my time and I have to say that educational travel really has been around for a long time. In the 50s it was largely promoted by museums and by the 70s and 80s the alumni associations were really developing it to a larger scope. And I would say that ETC, or the Educational Travel Conference, was initially called Nonprofits and Travel MPTC and we moved the title to Educational Travel Consortium because that was better it was. People did not understand nonprofits and travel for our foreign delegates. That came, and so we moved into ETC in the year 2000. We changed the name, not the conference, and we we moved into ETC in the year 2000. We changed the brand of the name, not the conference, and we went, moved on from there.
Speaker 5:So I would say that ETC is a segment of the educational travel markets, not largely student travel. We're talking about adult lifelong learning through travel and it's largely offered through museums, alumni associations, conservation and cultural groups, and that is largely its focus. But it conservation and cultural groups and that is largely its focus, but it's certainly expanding beyond that. There's non-traditional study abroad, things of that nature, but largely we are dealing with these organizations that are using travel as a means to engage with their alumni or their members, as well as development. I mean, in other words, to contribute funds to the universities. It's kind of unique in the States. It's not really seen worldwide. It's a very unique sector, often under the radar for a lot of travel, larger national organizations and travel, but it's a very significant one. It's multi, multimillion dollar market and it's significant.
Speaker 2:Well, and just to add to that too, from what you've built in the people that I had a privilege to meet, a number of colleagues that I had known for years that were very active within the ETC community, and I just had to highlight this, too for our listeners, given all the people you've heard from throughout this conversation, like Susan Black and Alan Mershon and a number of fascinating people that came together for this event.
Speaker 2:Uh, samantha Brown, there was so many amazing people that have come together for this conference and shared their stories, but the one thing I just wanted to highlight to underline your point there is just you have a 300-person conference that really controls tens of millions of dollars, and someone had even highlighted billions of dollars in revenue.
Speaker 2:But the reality is these organizations have very substantial travel spends and the savvy companies have realized the opportunity to be involved, like National Geographic, lindblad Expeditions. As a good example, ian Kynor, who I know is on your advisory board. He was a dear friend for many years. He's been on this podcast as well, so it's so great to reconnect with people like Ian who understand the value of the organization and they change organizations, and one of the things he highlighted to me was just how valuable long-term, all these relationships are, and it's something that there's a very special community that you have built, and that's where I wanted to understand from the very beginning was this always the vision that you had for this organization, like what was the original mission, and how does that stack up today?
Speaker 5:That's a great question, dan, because it does get to the core of why I did it. I was sitting there thinking that I worked with a lot of these organizations. They were very disparate in their connections. I mean, you're talking back several decades. There was no internet, there was no. I mean, some of the larger organizations didn't know the travel plan from another organization.
Speaker 5:And I saw that as I was in sales I saw that we really needed education, we needed to connect this community and so we connected it through a conference. I mean, basically, it was six weeks out. I said let's just mail to everyone and see who will come. And that's how it started. I wanted to create a community. People pushed call it an association. I said, no, it's actually a community. So I know that's a very popular term right now, but it wasn't that popular back then. And I thought, no, there's a community and it's very interesting through all of the nuances of what's happened in the industry with 9-11. I mean significant challenges. This community held together and you could see that through COVID. Whatever it's been really my inspiration to continue and develop that community. But that's also what keeps me inspired to do it and you can see it because people have changed from travel planners to tour operators, tour operators to travel planners. You also see at the conference that there are tour operators that are major competitors but they share information. It's very unusual that all the conferences that I had gone to way back when you know, when I was selling programs. So I think that's really important and I wanted to keep it.
Speaker 5:So we called it the Educational Travel Community. That's really what ETC you know stands for. But we said consortium to help the universities understand that this was a consortium of travel programs and it was a professional organization and as that community. There is one other thing, dan it is largely an educational forum. It's teaching through tourism. So basically, our sessions are very pretty much curated throughout the conference on themes, but they go very deep into the topics that these nonprofits need to address because they have more at risk than I would say the general. Their risk is alienating their donors or travelers on the trip could be very detrimental to that organization, and so they really have to look at their operators, look at the alignment mission and they are mission driven and that's a very differentiating feature of this organization, of these, the consortium, saying that they're mission driven. So there's an alignment there. So if you're mission driven, the community drives on that mission, basically for education, and it's really really its foundation education and community.
Speaker 2:What stood out to me about the community is it's certainly alive and well. There has clearly been many people that have participated over the years. You've got a number of people that work with you who have clearly been loyal and longstanding team members that are clearly part of the culture as well, and then the people that have been there for 20 years. It was very common for me to find that answer about how long you've been coming to ETC or the events and it's oh yeah, I think this is only my 15th year, but many people were 20 years plus. But the other thing that stood out too was the fact that you welcome in new members and, as some of the listeners will have seen on stage, the CEO of Impulse Travel, juliana. She's based in Columbia. She actually attended this event. She signed up as a member, attended, had a table and got great benefit as a DMC out of Columbia and as being a new first-time member, and so it was clear to me that the community is alive and well when you have established members and you have new members coming in and clearly a very strong spirit of collaboration and supporting one another. That's a part of the community.
Speaker 2:It certainly seems to be the case that people within ETC do business with people within ETC and there is that trust factor and that's that a lot of these team members have built a moat around their business that will stand up in the face of technology because they have strong relationships with their customers, and especially when you think about the college and alumni organizations across the US. So tell us a little bit about how it's grown over the years and where you've hosted these events, because obviously, when I was preparing, I read about your background and I also saw that the event was in Washington for many years and Arlington, but it's traveled around and we are obviously in mobile and that was one of the questions about how the event gets chosen in the different destinations. So tell us a little bit more about the journey and how you select the destinations for the events.
Speaker 5:Well, I just wanted to bring up one thing, dan, that you mentioned about the newcomers. Whatever, we have a strong mentorship program. So we have tour operators mentoring other tour operators, so I wanted to bring that up. So those newcomers, like our colleagues, we also have a work-study program, so some of the younger entrepreneurial companies that really can't afford, they don't have a lot of staff, so they work and they help. So that is truly. I mean, there's the heartbeat of the community right there. And we also have a training program called Jumpstart for Newcomer, new Travel Planners. That's all volunteer led and trained. So I just wanted to mention that.
Speaker 5:As far as where we're located, yes, it started in DC because that's where I was working and it worked very well for some years. However, we moved around because we came up with the concept of learning labs. So we go to we significantly choose by decision tier two cities and when we go to those cities, we use those cities as a platform to showcase how educational travel can be done in any city. You can take what you learn in these learning labs and apply it to anywhere in the world, from Nepal to Europe, wherever, and what we use. That is talking about the next phase of educational travel. It really is about curated transformational experiences, so it's not just by default. There's a whole concept of learning through travel and it's curated, so we teach that those techniques. So when I used to lead programs, I was tour manager. But today you need a tour facilitator to facilitate some of the difficult conversations in different countries and particularly with the kind of audience that we're taking your members from alumni.
Speaker 5:So that is why we've moved around and so we've moved to the West Coast. We moved to Reno, la. We've been in St Louis. We also went to Canada and to Manitoba, because Winnipeg truly understands this concept of curated educational travel and we had a significant experience and we did it in the winter. Curated educational travel and we had a significant experience and we did it in the winter. So that was not a challenge because we were talking about the educational contact and the significant museums and organizations and overall culture, cuisine that was available there.
Speaker 5:We went to Mobile. We were also in Montgomery Alabama. That was very transformational back in 2017. In Montgomery Alabama, that was very transformational back in 2017. So we strategically picked the cities that are really wanting to showcase that could be used for the learning labs. Some of the colleagues find that difficult to have to take a couple of flights to get to those cities, but in retrospect some of them have been the most transformational experiences. So the conference is not just a conference. It's an experience in itself of taking my colleagues on a trip through educational travel.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I'm glad you mentioned that, especially about the mentorship, because obviously that is an important feature of the organization and that's something that definitely has come up in these conversations. So I'm glad that you highlighted that. And then the other thing when you talked about the different destinations, that was one thing that stood out to me was that these tier two cities I've never been to Mobile Alabama before and people did their pre-trip. Susan Black talked about this on the discussion. That was a real highlight for her because she had never been and she's traveled extensively. So that's one of the things I certainly enjoyed about the conference.
Speaker 2:So tell us a little bit beyond the time that we got together and I know you kindly highlighted my talk, but I would love to hear all the other highlights.
Speaker 2:So I'm not fishing for a compliment and asking this question, please. It's not that I actually would love to hear from you because you were so busy throughout the conference. And, of course, this is your party, this is your wedding. Everyone comes together and you have to make sure that everyone's having a great time and that everyone's taken care of, and I could see how much care and attention you give to that, especially the first night when you're welcoming everyone. It's great to meet your brother, who was there, but I could just see the dynamic you have with. You know there's a wow factor when you walk into the room. There's just you know people know who you are, they have a great deal of respect for you and you somehow can pull off these events very smoothly, from what I experienced. So tell us a little bit of what some of the highlights were for you this year in bringing this event together.
Speaker 5:The highlights I mean. First, I should mention I have a great team. Most of them have worked over 20 years with me, largely Montana team, and so I can't really take credit for the smooth running of the conference. Yes, you want to set your team up for success and I certainly focus on that. But my team, everyone knows it's a real relationship between my team and the people that come as well. So I should say that we also have a wonderful speaker.
Speaker 5:What was highlighted for me is my team walked away really excited, but also the speakers. I mean we're really inspirational. I think we focused largely I mean I mentioned the learning labs. That was really a high, for it was really a high in Montgomery, I mean, excuse me and well outside Montgomery, because we looked at Clotilda, which is the last illegal slave ship that left Benin I had just been in Benin three months before and then also America's the largest biodiversity area in the Henshaw Delta. So those were highlights and people really walked away and we're actually getting more of the conference to go to the learning labs. I think we had about 40% it was high on the learning labs this year.
Speaker 5:And then, moving into the conference itself, I think that donor development and engagement was large, large portion of the conference and sessions. Risk management, of course, every year, but responsible tourism. But there was a heavy focus on conservation. Our conservation delegates are growing, the institutions that are coming, so that was very exciting. They contribute a significant amount to the alumni travel planners that come. And then, of course, geopolitical trends are always important and AI was a hitical. Trends are always important and AI was a hit. It was a whole day. So thank you for keeping people awake.
Speaker 5:On the last day People actually changed their flight. I don't know if you knew that, dan, but a couple of my international delegates said we've changed our flight. We had to hear that talk and of course, we have a huge demand, so we've recorded it with your slides and so it's going out across, I guess, the network and it will be shown to a lot of their upper management, which is great. So I appreciate that. And then Michael Clinton came. He's founder of Roar Forward and he talked a presentation on travel as a catalyst for lifelong learning in the new longevity movement and I think he really spoke to our sweets.
Speaker 5:The sweet spot travel that this is where we have. This is the next stage of lifelong learning. We've been in it for a long time but now I think we're converging with, actually, the demand from the demographics. So that was the most exciting thing for me to see that talk, because it just spoke what we do and why it's going to succeed in it, and exponentially. To be quite honest, you ask what's happening. My colleagues are overwhelmed with the demand for their trips. I mean, they're booking way out after 2026. So it's significant and you're talking right after, you know, not that far after COVID, which was very, very devastating to the community.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was exciting to see the enthusiasm and level of booking activity, for sure, and that obviously that continues, despite some of the geopolitical tensions that we've seen that post the conference. But I wanted to also highlight the when you mentioned Michael Clinton absolutely fantastic opening keynote speaker. I didn't have the chance to record with him, unfortunately, on this, but I definitely encourage our listeners to seek out more information about Michael, his new book and he gave a great presentation. Alan Mershon, of course, was the second keynote speaker. That was earlier in the day and he was on this podcast, which was excellent as well.
Speaker 2:So it's just, everything seemed to really come together. The stars certainly aligned, and this was my first experience. But for you, how did this compare to other conferences? Is this very much in keeping with what is kind of the ETC standard? Because it was certainly not only a well-intended but highly engaged conference. The right people were there and everyone was getting a lot of value out of it, so clearly that's what keeps people coming back. But for you, was there anything particularly unique or special otherwise about this year? Or is that really what anyone should come to expect for attending an ETC conference or getting involved in the community?
Speaker 5:I focus largely a lot of my work with is on team, but I do majority of my work for the conference, to be honest, is programming and I always try to have a very tightly curated program. I mean that is our brand, our educational. I mean what we deliver in the sessions. Some, some people, say it's like trying to drink water out of a fire hydrant. I mean in the sense that I mean I'm programming, dan, for the programmers, I'm programming for my colleagues running these huge travel programs and very prestigious, so universities and institutions, and we have to deliver on an educational program. So 80 percent of the program really is it's not a trade show. I mean we do have our one-to-one meetings, but 80% is focused on programming.
Speaker 5:We put an enormous amount of resources and time so this year it really was aligned. I mean the way the trend sessions flowed was really. I mean you get a moment in time. Yes, I think this was one of our best, but I have to say you know they're all focused that way. I mean it depends. It's a very exciting time and travel too. So, despite the challenges worldwide. So it was fun to program it, but we spent six months programming.
Speaker 5:I mean we, but it involves all of the. You saw how many volunteers, a lot of the speakers from the community, so you have to work with everyone to get on the same choir page and really address. So spending two months in the summer talking to colleagues to find out what their issues are and then putting together with my colleagues a program say this was one of the best conferences on two levels for my team, because it was efficiently, beautifully run. The Montgomery delivered, but also the educational program I think was one of the best, although I have to say Montgomery was transformative and you hope that every conference is your best, because that's about all people remember is the last conference they came to. So you need to deliver. But it's very, very I think. I mean it's not just a session stuck in between trade show or whatever it is actually. It is an educational program and I don't you didn't attend one day with just for the travel planners, but they're getting certification now, so there are certification programs going on. So there's a lot of detail focused on the programming.
Speaker 2:Now, that's great, that's clear for sure, and I know how much time and effort went into it, and one of the things you'd highlighted to me and it made all the difference for my presentation, there's no question, I know I started off with this is that we had spoken to seven or eight members and had seven, eight hours worth of conversations to get an understanding of where they're at with AI, what it is they want to learn and what they know, and they were all so keen to have a conversation, share their insights, and that, ultimately, is what led at least certainly from my instance, to having a really engaging presentation.
Speaker 2:But it's that community and the fact they were giving us the feedback that we needed to hear to be helpful. One of the things that came up during the presentation was the plans for next year, and so you know we're having this conversation now, a couple of months after the event. This episode will get global listenership and that's why I was so keen to have you on this discussion so that, aside from hearing all the amazing highlights that they've just heard, that they could learn more about ETC, to be able to connect with you, the team, and be involved in future events. But clearly, the events is just one part of being involved in ETC, so tell everyone a little bit about where you're headed now, in mid 2025, going into 2026. What are some of the ETC initiatives that people should be aware of and what are the plans for the next big get together?
Speaker 5:for a destination that's willing to collaborate. But our big focus is on creating an online community, more robust online community. I think that really needs to happen and that requires a lot of strategic thought and funding, because the community wants to stay connected year round, and so we're using your session and other sessions to start. I mean, it's not a new idea, it's just that we haven't put it into that, we haven't focused on that. So that is one of the developments. We have a new advisory council rotating, so that's a whole nother focus.
Speaker 5:We go overseas for our international mid-year planning meeting with our advisory council and once we pick the destination, unlike some organizations, we have to look at pricing, and basically picking a destination three years out is not the best pricing policy for the rooms, because we were dealing with a non-profit audience. So there are a lot of factors that go into that. Looking maybe at the west coast, and because we try to combine and there's some very, very forward-looking tourism directors there that would be able to really grasp this type of meeting. So we'll you know, we'll you know, we'll announce that down the line. We never announced it at the conference and I know that's probably not the way you do it, but that is the way it happens in this organization for the last 20 years, you know, dan, I'd like to just circle back and saying the way you dealed your session and when people were speaking to you.
Speaker 5:That's what we do with all of our speakers. We ask our audience to talk to you, and so that does take time too, but it's the commitment of my colleagues to do that and your commitment to take the time to carefully focus on this audience. We don't just bring in people to talk about things. They have to relate to what is on the minds of the attendees. So you zeroed in on a point of why the program was successful. It's because you took the time and my colleagues I mean. Well, yes, we strategically picked the people who were going to talk to you, but they are willing to contribute.
Speaker 2:Educationaltravel is the main website and the membership information is all there for you. But what would you highlight for someone that's considering getting involved? From everything they've heard from the people on this podcast, now hearing from you, what would you like to share with them if they're interested in becoming a new member, or other people that are saying, wait a second, I actually need to get back involved again?
Speaker 5:Well one, any new member. It always gets channeled to me so I have a good. That is one of my biggest jobs is to talk to anyone new that comes. So certainly with the telephone number 406-745-4800. And basically it'll route to me for newcomers.
Speaker 5:But I want to stress that it's not and I think this is an important point it is a very specific niche market so it works quite differently. There's relationships built. It takes a time to get into this market. I mean, they don't, you don't get.
Speaker 5:I always recommend to newcomers you're not going to have appointments and getting tours right away. You've got to get to know the people, get involved with programming, getting involved, getting FaceTime and delivering expertise. And it takes some time to connect with the travel planners. But so I'd like to talk to someone ahead of time. There are times where I counsel someone that maybe it isn't the market for them and sometimes I really feel it's absolutely the market for them and it's.
Speaker 5:People are looking for younger travelers now. They want to know some programs that could align with the university's mission in dealing with that. So we talk extensively and I have a white paper I wrote, I think, with a former colleague at Yale. So those are helpful tips for people. But I do think just a personal conversation is the best, because people have different questions every time and I don't want someone to come without understanding the concept. And then I also have my colleagues talk to them.
Speaker 5:If it's strategically another tour operator, if it's an inbound operator or foreign operator, I'll ask one of my because our advisor council represents all constituencies I'll have them say well, that's part of their responsibilities. Can you talk with this person and give them an honest opinion, because maybe they don't want to hear it from me. So I think, dan, I know it's the day of electronics and you kind of click on this or that, but the personal conversations at that point because you were investing to come to a meeting and people can become a member without coming to the meeting. But I do think that it's really important that FaceTime at the meeting certainly. And the other aspect of growing is we want to develop more of a program for training for tour operators and destinations too.
Speaker 2:It's just been largely focused on travel planners, but I think there's a lot of education that they can get as well benefit from and that's why I wanted to make sure that, hearing it directly from you, they can read what they need to on the website to understand it.
Speaker 2:But even just knowing that level of care and attention that you give to new members, there was one thing, as you know, that we, during the presentation, we introduced this number. I'll give it at the end for everyone to be able to dial in, because one of the things we're going to optimize towards for next year and for anyone who's going to just wants to call in and find out some information to help balance out your time, so that you know we can, we can have some people just call in the number and get the information that they need to understand more about, etc. So it'll be, it'll be fun to continue that. But there's just a couple last questions. I just wanted to ask you since we're finally getting this time together and I'm so keen to have this conversation Some of the things you're looking forward to with the organization. Obviously, the next event, what are some of the things that you clearly have a lot of energy and interest. That's one thing that obviously you and I both have in common.
Speaker 5:So what are some of the things that you're looking forward to with the organization over the next year or two? Are there some other exciting developments to your planning, or what is it that keeps you so motivated and the team so excited and enthused? I think that it's much. I'd like to see it reach its full potential. In other words, I don't think we're touching all of the organizations, the nonprofit organizations that are doing travel and this real proliferation of them now. I mean you see it popping up everywhere.
Speaker 5:So, connecting to the cultural heritage community, connecting to the non-traditional study abroad, these are things that are really exciting and reaching out. And we have gotten in the last couple of weeks I've gotten more calls from people I've never had at the conference, asking about the conference for next year. So I don't know. You know that's really exciting to me too to get new people, new blood and I, but we have to keep, we have to cap the numbers. I mean it's not trying to build, we're not looking at numbers, we're looking at quality and content. So, and appropriate people. So developing more profiles and getting better at the profiling of the people that are coming and making sure that it's really the place to be for certain companies and so, yes, we invite everyone.
Speaker 5:But it's great to know that we could get some new aspects, I think the younger looking at who's going to be traveling on these programs and looking at really making them more transformational in the leadership and the quality of the trips, making them more transformational in the leadership and the quality of the trips I think that's great.
Speaker 5:Helping my colleagues really extend this concept to their upper management, that travel is not just a little job or it's an affinity type thing and that it really is impacting their alumni and significantly their donor development. I think that's a big issue and really taking that certification program to its full extent, I mean in a sense. So these are things beyond the conference that really will drive more participation for the nonprofits and if the nonprofits are there, the tour operators will be there and so will the destinations, because this really truly is unique in the industry. There's not another program like that for the nonprofits and travel, and I would love to see them take over the leadership role that they had back in the 70s and 80s of educational travel. They're the ones that brought the you know, the lecturers to the ships and the faculty, and now that's just commonplace. So where are they going to lead next? And where they're going to lead next is in the transformational aspects of curating a really really adult lifelong learning travel program.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's so exciting and you know, obviously it's been wonderful to meet the team and to get to know you, and I'm certainly thrilled about the prospect of coming back again next year, wherever that may be.
Speaker 2:Consider me signed up for it, and I definitely want, over the course of that time, to stay connected to you and the community and continue to profile some of the exciting developments that you have on and clearly just stay in touch, because one of the things that we just started our conversation was is that Mara just got back from Bhutan and so you're such an avid traveler. Today you just spent three weeks in Bhutan and I know you're going to be publishing an article about this, so you're still just very much in this space and I just love to keep up with you on the trends that are happening with travel from your perspective. And so, yeah, sincere thank you for me for the invitation to the conference, for making the time to be here for this podcast and doing this special spotlight episode together. Amara, it's been great getting to know you and I certainly look forward to keeping in touch and I wish you and the team every success in the year ahead.
Speaker 5:And I want to thank you, dan, because the energy you exuded throughout the conference just was infectious. I mean, it was an amazing opportunity to meet you in person. I got that drip when we were talking, but and as far as a traveler, when are you in your office, I mean? But thank you very much for inviting me. I hope that some of the comments were helpful to people and certainly I will follow up whenever anyone comes our way.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us for this latest event spotlight of travel trends. I really hope you enjoyed all of these conversations recorded live from the ETC conference in Mobile, alabama. It was a really special event. It was a privilege to be a part of and I'm thrilled to have been invited back next year. So thanks to everyone that made the effort to speak with me, connect with me, all of the guests on the show. Special thanks, of course, to Mara and the team for having built such an impressive community around travel and nonprofits and I look forward to seeing your continued growth and finding out exactly where next year's conference is going to be. And for those of you who have now discovered the GuestOS app and the phone number, we'll make sure that's included so you can call in and learn more information about ETC. But definitely check out educationaltraveltravel for more information to become a member or get involved in future events. Thanks again for joining us and look forward to having you on the next episode of Travel Trends. Until next time time, safe travels.
