Travel Trends with Dan Christian
#1 B2B Travel Podcast. If you are looking to stay ahead in the travel industry, this new podcast hits all the highlights! The Travel Trends Podcast is where industry leaders converge to share & shape the future. Whether you're an emerging entrepreneur, a seasoned industry executive, or a dedicated travel professional, you’ll be able to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving landscape.
Uncover valuable insights, innovative strategies, and meaningful connections that will elevate your travel business or career to new heights.
Travel Trends with Dan Christian
How a Global Tour Operator Masters River Cruising with Avalon Waterways
What’s really behind the rising tide of interest in river cruising? In this episode, Pam Hoffee, President of Avalon Waterways, dispels common myths and reveals the innovations fueling this fast-growing segment of the travel industry. From her serendipitous start in travel after a chance encounter in a college bar to leading award-winning ship designs, Pam shares how Avalon has reimagined the river cruise experience—infusing it with authenticity, sustainability, and unexpected luxury.
By orienting beds to face panoramic windows and sourcing ingredients from local markets, Avalon redefines the meaning of detail-driven travel. Pam also discusses the surprising rise in younger travelers drawn to river cruising post-pandemic, and how programs like Avalon Choice deliver immersive, flexible experiences to match evolving preferences.
Whether you're curious about crowd-free, motion-sickness-free cruising or simply want to hear what makes exploring the Rhine, Bordeaux, or Southeast Asia by river so unforgettable - this conversation will make you rethink what river cruising is really all about.
👉 Listen to Transforming How a Global Tour Operator Masters River Cruising Now
🔥 Season 5 Title Sponsors: TravelAI, Stay22, Propellic, Flight Centre, Collette, Flywire, Traveltek and Protect Group
The #1 B2B Travel Podcast Globally. Over 100 Episodes. Listeners in 125 countries. New Episodes Every Weds. Season 5 In Progress.
https://www.traveltrendspodcast.com/
When I first came into the brand, there was a lot of feeling that we were all the same and that has changed so much, which I'm so grateful for that each line's found their unique personality and position and we're not all the same. Yes, the ships are all the same width in general and the same length because in order to go through the locks they have to be, but how you use that and how you make your guests feel can and is different with everybody.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host, dan Christian, and today we are wrapping up our deep dive into the world of river cruises and speaking to the president of Avalon, pam Hoffey. Now, this series was brought to us by our friends over at Captio, which, as you heard, our first episode was with the founder, ragnar, as we set the stage for this category, and then we had a fascinating conversation with Steve Spivak from Tauk, and then last week with Lisa McCaskill from Scenic, and I just wanted to say thanks again to the team at Captio, and if you're looking for the most modern travel technology solution for multi-day experiences, whether it's from cabins to train cars, then they are the ones to speak to. They have developed the most robust, unified, scalable solution on the market, and I definitely encourage you to check out our friends over at Captio K-A-P-T-I-Ocom. Now. One other major development is we have just announced our AI summit for 2025, which is October 28th and 29th. Early bird tickets are just going live, so be sure to register at Travel Trends podcast dot com to take advantage of that early bird offer and check out all the amazing speakers and sponsors and the agenda that we're putting together for this truly transformational event, and I think everyone knows this by now. But we do post all of our clips and highlights on our social channels, which is Instagram, linkedin and YouTube, so be sure to check those out at Travel Trends Podcast for highlights from today's conversation with Pam Hoffey. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2:Our longtime listeners will be very familiar with travelaicom, one of our sponsors, from the very beginning. They've sponsored the last two seasons and also our AI Summit. You might actually remember they were recently featured in season four. The two co-founders, john Liotier and Chris Jensen, live from Focusrite, where they shared how their innovative use of AI is reshaping the travel industry. If you missed it, we highly recommend going back to hear their inspiring story of building one of the fastest growing, profitable AI companies in travel.
Speaker 2:Entirely bootstrapped Travel AI is revolutionizing the industry by blending AI powered efficiency with personalized, human centered travel experiences, from micro segmentation to tailored travel solutions. Their mission is to enhance every traveler's journey while setting the pace for travel's future. Here's how you can join the exciting mission. If you or someone you know in tech or AI is looking for a new career that combines innovation and impact, then head to travelaicom or follow them on LinkedIn to explore more opportunities. They are growing fast. Thanks again for your continued support to explore more opportunities. They are growing fast. Thanks again for your continued support.
Speaker 2:Hey, travel Trends listeners, I've got a question for you how much money is your website actually leaving on the table right now? One of our episode sponsors Stay22, has just dropped a new tool that's kind of a no-brainer and it's called the Stay22 Revenue Calculator. It shows you in seconds how much you could be earning with their AI-powered monetization tech. No extra ads, no clutter, just clean additional revenue. Publishers are already seeing up to 40% more RPM without changing their setup. So go check out stay22.com, slash travel trends and hit revenue calculator. That's stay22.com slash travel trends and check out their revenue calculator. You might be leaving more on the table than you think.
Speaker 2:And now back to the show.
Speaker 2:Now, just to set the stage for this conversation with Pam, I was very keen to have Avalon as part of this series, since they are part of the Globus family of brands and we heard from Steve, who's the CMO, during our guided touring series, and one of the things that's really unique about their entrance into the world of river cruising is they created a new brand.
Speaker 2:Now, as you heard from Tauch and from Scenic. Those were brand extensions. They were going from guided touring into river cruise and then also into ocean in the case of Scenic Whereas Avalon as you'll hear from our conversation with Pam today, who's been an important part of their organization for many years and then took over the River Cruise business they created Avalon as a brand, and that's what I really wanted to dig into to understand why they created a new brand, how that brand differentiates from the Globus family of brands, and I think our listeners will learn a lot from this conversation. Whether you are a travel advisor looking to sell these amazing experiences or a traveler looking to book your next trip, I think you'll find today's conversation really interesting. So, on that note, let's bring in Pam Hoffey, the president of Avalon. Welcome, pam, thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for having me. I was really excited to have this chance to chat with you.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I've been so looking forward to bringing this river cruise series together, and especially given you know, your background in this space is so impressive and I think people got a good sense of that from the introduction. But I would love for you to be able to illuminate to all of our listeners your journey into the travel industry, because you've spent so much time honing your expertise in river cruise. But what got you into travel and tourism in the first place?
Speaker 1:Well, it's a funny story Actually. Um, I was at the university of Colorado in Boulder, and I was in the business school studying either marketing or finance. At that point which is kind of big differences I wasn't sure which direction I wanted to go, and I knew that I desperately wanted to go on this program called Semester at Sea, which is a college program where you travel around the world on a ship and take your courses during the semester. While you're 100 days traveling around the world, my parents said no, that they wouldn't pay for it, and they said it was too expensive. So I set out to figure out how to do it, and I happened to meet a girl one night in a bar, of course who told me that she had a semester at sea t-shirt on, and so I started talking to her about it. She said well, actually I worked on that ship. It's an internship in the tourism department, which was part of the business school that I was in. And so she said if you take the tourism classes, you can get an internship working on the Semester at Sea ship. So that's what I did.
Speaker 1:So that's how it all started, and ended up becoming the shore excursion manager for the cruise line that did the summers, so semester at sea, operated the ship for the two semesters and then in between there was a cruise line that offered cruises on that ship.
Speaker 1:So I was there for seven years, sailed on semester at sea a few times, which was, you know, the end goal in the beginning was to get to go on semester at sea and then eventually became director of operations for that cruise line, decided I wanted to come back to Colorado, which is where I'm from, and found the Globus family of brands, which, honestly, was the best thing that could have happened for me.
Speaker 1:I've been here 22 years now and it's a great company and Avalon's one of the brands in the company. And so you know my cruise background is not originally what got me hired. It was to manage the product team and they were looking for somebody who had experience outside of Europe and because all of our Europe products done by our office there and that was what Semester at Sea had taken me to was all over the world, not really to Europe, because they always focused on kind of off the beaten path places that you weren't necessarily going to travel on your own. And then when Avalon decided to expand into Asia, that was my first entry into Avalon as I worked on building the ships that we had on the Mekong and eventually Myanmar and the India program and the South America, so everything other than Europe and it was kind of natural, with my cruise background and that experience when my predecessor retired to take this role with Avalon.
Speaker 2:You know, I think that's really fascinating because we had our series on guided touring and of course, we had your colleague Steve, the CMO from Globus, as part of that and we're doing River Cruise now and obviously bringing you into the conversation and I think we got a great understanding of many of our listeners would have heard Steve talking about Globus and that's why I was so keen to have you on, but not only because you represent Avalon and part of the Globus family, but specifically because your background is on the operations side.
Speaker 2:Like you came up in the product and operations side of the business and I think some of our listeners would have heard me mention that with some of the other executives I was speaking to, because I find that so fascinating, that someone's journey. Clearly you have a great passion for travel and a great interest, but you've honed that skill over an extended period of time to hold the you know, hold the president title and the role that you have, and that's why I'm so thrilled to be able to speak to you in that capacity but also understand your journey.
Speaker 1:It is sometimes unusual to have somebody come up through operations and end up in this role, and I think it gives me a lot of insight to the details and I probably focus more on the little details than maybe I should as the president of the company, but it's what I really enjoy and I think they're the small things that make a difference to our travelers.
Speaker 1:And so you know I love having that background. And then you know I had to learn more of the sales sales side and the strategic thinking, because you know, because operations is where I came from in product planning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. And the one thing I think will be helpful for all of our listeners they know the connection with Globus, but tell us a little bit about the history and background on Avalon Waterways and how the company itself was established and how it became part of the Globus family of brands.
Speaker 1:Sure. So Avalon is one of the three brands of the family. So for those who don't know Globus, I'll just mention it's almost 100-year-old tour operator, so with incredible roots in travel and in perfecting land vacations and land journeys. And so it was back in 2003 where the idea of Avalon Waterways came about. So we had been selling river cruising as part of our vacations with Globus, using a partner, and it was just very clear that this style of travel was emerging.
Speaker 1:It was something that we could do ourselves and do it a little bit differently than that partner that we were using, and Avalon Waterways was born. So 2004 was the first year operating with one ship, and then has grown now to 16 ships in Europe and a ship on the Mekong, and then we operate with partners on the Nile and on the Amazon rivers. So you know pretty much every river in Europe we are covering, and the rest of the world too. So it absolutely was the right decision back in 2003 to go out and branch out on our own so that we could do something a little bit differently than what you know was in the market at that point in time.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm glad you explained that connection, that the brand was sort of created to be part of the group and had a standalone brand identity as Avalon. So tell us a little bit about how you came to that determination, Because one of the things I'm keen to ask you, Pam, is just how complimentary guided touring is with River Cruise, which is why we're doing these kind of back-to-back, because, as some of our listeners have heard, I mean, a number of companies operate in both spaces and really a consumer, as you well know, will take a guided tour for a week and then they'll take a River Cruise, even if it's different companies, because they're both complimentary experiences. So tell us a little bit about how you decided that it's not Globus as a brand for the river cruise. You came up with Avalon, and so and tell us a little bit about how that brand was established, because I'm keen to know some of the unique characteristics about Avalon that makes it so special. But also but just before we do that, I'd love to know how you see it complimenting Globus.
Speaker 1:So why a new brand? Was probably mostly about the standards of river cruising and the standard that we wanted to represent, and Avalon is a little bit of a step above Globus in terms of the quality and the standards, so that was really the core reason to have a different brand was in order to meet the needs of the river cruise market.
Speaker 1:In reality, the river cruise market just skews a little bit higher end and you know I'm not denigrating the Globus brand by saying that, because Globus is certainly a great quality product. It's just that Avalon is just that notch above. So that was one of the one of the core reasons to have a different brand and, in terms of you know what makes Avalon different and the things that really were, why establish our own brand, those have honestly evolved over the years and you know I wasn't part of the initial. I was with the company but I wasn't part of the initial group developing Avalon. You know initial group developing Avalon. You know the idea was for sure to build ships that were better. So at the time, you know two decks of rooms with French balconies didn't exist and so that was the first you know kind of fleet that Avalon have, which we don't have anymore. We've let all of those go in favor of what is now the big differentiator for Avalon, which is our suite class ships. So our panorama class and our award-winning panorama suites, which I think is one of the biggest differentiators of Avalon and the rest of the industry is how we created this special room that we have. This special room that we have and beyond that, you know, the idea of doing land a little bit differently, and that also has evolved over the 20 years. It's now a lot about choice, and so really being experts in land, you know, was a differentiator for us still is in how we work with communities to create the excursions that we offer. And you know, as I said, that's evolved over the 20 years and so many other things have, you know, come up over those years. That kind of create the differentiators.
Speaker 1:Our active and discovery cruises, which launched in 2017, were in response to trends in the market and what people were looking for. People weren't looking for just that walking tour of the city to go in the market and what people were looking for. People weren't looking for just that walking tour of the city to go see the church. They were looking for immersive connections with destinations, seeing them in a different way, and I think that has gone so much in that the travel industry and the needs of travelers has gone so much in that direction. We were probably early in 2017 for that and now it's really full steam with that style.
Speaker 1:How we do dining is also different, with you know, regional cuisine, local beers and wines and just being flexible. And the style of how we operate is also a big differentiator for Avalon this kind of relaxed, luxury feel. Every river cruise line is different. I think that's something that when I first came into the brand, there was a lot of feeling that we were all the same and that has changed so much, which I'm so grateful for, that each line's found their unique personality and position and we're not all the same. Yes, the ships are all the same width in general and the same length, because in order to go through the locks they have to be, but how you use that and how you make your guests feel can and is different with every line.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I definitely want to dive into that because, as you, with the 16 ships, the bulk of the fleet, of course, is in Europe, but, as you mentioned, you've expanded to Africa and South America and to Asia, and that obviously is in response to traveler interest within river cruising itself.
Speaker 2:The people love the experience of river cruising and then they want to find other rivers to travel on and so you've expanded for all the right reasons.
Speaker 2:But Europe is obviously a core market for you and exactly what you just described was something that really stood out to me as I came to understand that when I was working with Travel Corporation and specifically Uniworld which interestingly, of course, is that next level, as you highlighted, because Steve was telling us about Globus being the first class holidays and then you've got this elevated luxury with Avalon, so and similar, I guess, with an Insight, vacations to a Uniworld trip, and so what appeals to a lot of people for sure, when you've got a ship that is, you know, 100, 130 people, you know there's an exclusivity, there's, you know, incredible access to, to these cities and towns that you have the privilege to, to access on a, on a river that you, you wouldn't any other way.
Speaker 2:So tell us, if you wouldn't mind. This is the key thing for me that I certainly learned working with uh stanley and brett tolman from for a number of years was selling the difference. So some of our listeners have heard me talk about so the key thing I wanted to ask you is exactly that. Is that what sets Avalon apart from other river cruise companies?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so one of the key differentiators is our panorama suites. So I want to talk about those a little bit, because they really are different and unique. Different and unique. It was, I guess, around 2010, and I was in this meeting when cruise lines were entering the market and adding exterior balconies to river cruise ships, because in ocean, obviously, balconies are very popular it's what most people want and want to travel with and so some new entrants were coming into river and they were putting exterior balconies on their ships, and so it was, I think, an all day meeting with the same slide up the entire day debating whether or not balconies were the right thing to do for river cruising, and our salespeople were saying we have to have balconies. We're going to go out of business if we don't have balconies to our ships and our operations. People said, well, balconies don't make sense in river cruising because the ships can only be a certain width. If you add an exterior balcony, you're taking interior space from the room, and so at the time we had our fleet was all French balconies and the rooms were 172 square feet, and so the idea was what could we do that creates a balcony without taking the exterior space and giving our guests the best of both worlds. And so that was when the operations team went away. We made the commitment that balconies were not the right thing to do. But how can we make what we have the best experience where you have the feeling of a balcony but you have the interior space. And that's how the Panorama Suite was born, which is now consistently every single one of our ships is this class of ships, with two decks of this type of cabin.
Speaker 1:So, to describe it to people who maybe haven't seen it, it has an 11,. The entire wall is glass. So 11 feet wide, wall to wall, floor to ceiling, glass window. So it is not just a French balcony. When people say, oh, so it's a French balcony, no, it goes way beyond the traditional French balcony and it's three panels and two of those panels open. So the opening is actually seven feet wide and we put a seating area. So there's a love seat and a table and a chair there. The table raises and lowers so you can use it for cocktails, you can use it for dining, you can use it to work on if you want, even though there is a work desk in the room as well.
Speaker 1:So you can open that window, the seven feet, and have a balcony experience when you want it, but when you don't want it, you have the full use of the 200 square feet in the room, and making that room just that much bigger also allowed us, by not having the exterior balcony, we were able to turn the beds to face the view, which is another signature of the Avalon Panorama Suite, and it's something that we still are shocked that more people haven't replicated, because it's a game changer to have your bed turned to face the view.
Speaker 1:It means that you're not looking over your partner to look out of the window. You wake up and you have the view, and that's what river cruising is known for is these incredible views. It's constantly changing views and so you know I sleep with the curtains open so I can see out and see the passing, you know what's passing in the nighttime and wake up to those incredible views. It also allowed us to make a bigger bathroom, which cruise ship bathrooms are not necessary. Especially showers are not known for their large size, and with this turning of the bed to face the view, we actually found we could angle that wall just a little bit and it created a full size shower, the size that many people have at home, so a very large shower and marble bathrooms.
Speaker 1:I think we're one of the only cruise lines who puts photos of their bathrooms on their website, because they're actually beloved by our guests. You know they are really luxurious. So you know, I know I talked a long time about one differentiator. I know I talked a long time about one differentiator, but it really is a big one. The other differences are Avalon Choice Excursion Program and I had mentioned that that was kind of an evolution and something that we just saw guests looking for different experiences and so on any given day, we have multiple different choices of excursions and we can we categorize them into three categories.
Speaker 1:So there's the classic sightseeing, which is going to see the must-see sites of the destination with a local guide. So that might be a walking tour. It might be a coach tour if that's needed to get to the, to the must-see destinations. It's typically quite often a walking tour. And then we offer active excursions and those can be things like hikes, even kayaking and canoeing, bike rides, lots of different bike rides, so seeing your destination in an active way. And then the last option are discovery choices, which you know really speak to that trend toward immersive travel and wanting to have experiences that are really local. So those can be things like painting classes, cooking classes, meeting with a winemaker, so all sorts of different, really immersive experiences. There are a lot more in terms of differentiators, but I feel like I'm hogging the conversation. You want me to keep going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there's one specific one I wanted to ask you about, and that's cuisine, I think one of the things that certainly people look for on a cruise.
Speaker 2:You always hear people talk about cruises.
Speaker 2:They talk about food, but it's unique when it comes to river cruising, and I want to make sure I ask this in the context for the listeners that are both on the travel agent side, as well as consumers and people who might be considering an Avalon trip or kind of weighing up river cruises, and especially some of the people that might be new to river cruising and I do have some questions for you on that as well, too, pam.
Speaker 2:Things that has stood out to me is just how important it is for river cruises to be able to customize the cuisine based on the destination that they're traveling to and being able to visit local markets and the chefs, being able to source local food experiences, which you know when you're new to a river cruising, that's. You know that's not something that exists on ocean cruise, for example, given the scale, but given the size of the groups on a river cruise and the ability to provide a lot more personalization and customized options, I wanted to hear a little bit more about the cuisine, because I know what I've read on your website in preparing for our conversation today. But I would love if you wouldn't mind taking us through what cuisine looks like on the different ships and if you wouldn't mind highlighting how that differs between Europe and, say, asia or South America.
Speaker 1:Well, you know, to me, food is one of the main reasons that I travel. I think for a lot of people, you know, tasting the local cuisine is one of the most exciting parts of traveling because it's, you know, going outside of what you're normally doing and trying the things that that place is famous for. So to have a cruise where you aren't taking advantage of that, I think would be a loss for a lot of people if they felt like they weren't getting to taste local things and have that experience. And so you know that's really the concept behind Avalon's menus. On every single itinerary the menus are different and they reflect and change based on as you're traveling, you know, down the river, into new destinations, new countries, new regions, because there's regional cuisine within countries, obviously, and so the menu for that day reflects that. And so there are lunch specialties and dinner. That's what the menu offers are the things that the region's local famous for. So the chefs actually go ashore and buy the bread that is on the breakfast and lunch buffet in order to taste things that were actually produced locally. We do bake some of our bread on board, but the reality is we felt like this would be a better experience for our guests to go to local bakeries and buy local products and have different tastes throughout the week than just having the same things that our you know pastry chef would bake on board. So that's one of the things our chefs also go and buy you know, seasonal produce and seasonal items. For example, they go to the market in Budapest and buy the langos there, which are those little fried pastries that have the different they're savory and they have different toppings on them. So they go and buy those. They buy local sausages, so bringing things that you would have tasted had you gone to a restaurant. You would have it on board our ship. So that's, to me, a really important differentiator.
Speaker 1:We also do have the wine rotate in the same way. So our wine menus, we only serve European wines, and we actually have a wine every night from your region that you're sailing in. Unless you're in Holland, we don't do Dutch wines, and people who've had Dutch wines probably know why we don't do that. Everywhere else, though, we're using regional wines I'm talking about in Europe in particular, so that you get a taste of, you know, some really special wines that you're not likely to find in your wine shop at home, be it in North America, australia, wherever you may be living, so tasting these, these special wines. So in addition to that, we have all of your comfort favorites. So if you can't find anything, our chefs are on our menu. During the day we have a burger and Caesar salads. At lunch, for dinner we have filet mignon chicken salmon. So you know, if you don't want to try the regional offerings, there's always something familiar for everyone. But you know beyond just what our menus are like.
Speaker 1:I think a real differentiator for Avalon is the flexibility that we give our guests. So river cruising in the past was always you have to go to dinner at seven o'clock and if you aren't there at seven, when you come in and some lines is still this way from what I hear if you come in at 745, and they're on main courses, that's where you start, is on your main course. But we really believe that people you know may want to linger in the bar and have another drink, they may want to go for a walk before dinner, whatever it may be, and so our flex dining allows you to come anytime between seven and eight 30 to dinner. We added a lot of tables for two.
Speaker 1:I you know it's funny to me when I hear people say that one of the biggest worries about going on a cruise is that you might have to sit with somebody you don't like for dinner, and so we wanted to make it that people could just sit as a couple, if they want, or on their own if they want, or with their small group, whatever it may be. We do find that most people you know make friends and that's a big part of river cruising also and they find people that they're going to sit with and then alternative dining. So we do have a small plates option in our Panorama Bistro, which is in our lounge, and there's outside seating there so you can have dinner outside. We have a built-in grill on all of our ships where we do lunches and even dinners during the cruise. So really trying to offer a huge amount of variety and local taste is kind of the key to our culinary program.
Speaker 2:Well, you bring up a really interesting point there and I just wanted to share this with our audience and ask you another question on this topic. Pam, around you know solo travelers, couples, the types of people that take a river cruise because, for those that are uninitiated, I'll give an exact example. My father-in-law recently went on a river cruise and unfortunately, my mother-in-law passed away a couple of years ago and he was somewhat hesitant to go on his own, but he's been committed to doing the travel that they were planning to do together and full credit to him for doing that and obviously, he was nervous about going.
Speaker 2:But the first night a group invited him to join him at his table and he shared his story and they had a toast to her and he ended up having dinner with them every night on the trip and just had the most incredible time. And this is where I'm. I'm sharing that because I think it's important for listeners. I mean, I'm such a big advocate for travel and actually I genuinely love river cruising, I love guided traveling, I love river cruising like those are two for me that I I that I could lead a life just going back and forth between those two experiences.
Speaker 2:But what I wanted to ask you is that when you think about the type of people that book a river cruise, especially first timers, give us a bit of an overview of your customer profile. And Steve did a great job of that with Globus kind of talking about the 50 plus crowd and just giving everyone kind of an idea of what to expect on a Globus. Kind of talking about the, you know, the 50 plus crowd and just giving everyone kind of an idea of what to expect like on a Globus trip. And I'd love for you to do the same with Avalon, If you were kind of just give us a highlight of you know who are the types of people that are attracted to doing a river cruise. So if you were to, if you and I were walking into that restaurant together right now in our first night, give us an idea of who we might meet, where they're from, and a little bit of background, so that people can get an idea of what to expect.
Speaker 1:Well, I would say one of the biggest misconceptions in river cruising is that it's for old people and I'll just put that out there very bluntly, because that's what you hear all the time is oh, river cruising, and I think that's changing a lot, that perception. It's changing for a good reason, because the reality is also changing. The age on river cruises is dropping. Especially post-pandemic has dropped quite a bit. It is still I mean, our core market is still the baby boomer. It has shifted to being the younger baby boomer versus the older baby boomer and we're seeing a huge influx of Gen X coming into river.
Speaker 1:I think that coming out of COVID really pushed a lot of people to try river cruising for the first time who maybe had this mindset that it wouldn't be for them. And you know, this initial fear of getting back on a cruise ship, I do think, shifted business toward river in the beginning, because there was this fear of being out at sea, not being able to come back into port. You know all of these concerns of going out on a big ship with, you know, thousands of people. So let's try a river cruise, let's try a small ship, let's try a ship that is in inland waterways, so you know they can't be told no, you can't come into port, and we had a lot of new travelers come into river cruising and that brought the ages down substantially. So, like I said, the baby boomer is still the core market, with big shifts adding mostly younger baby boomer, gen X and even seeing millennials come into river cruising. I think a lot of that has to do with why we also see the shift toward needing a variety of excursions and flexibility, because these generations are looking for that a little bit more than what maybe my parents needed or wanted in travel.
Speaker 1:There is a big shift to how people are traveling. I mean, traditionally it has been you go with your partner. We do something called the wish list survey every year and we ask people how they plan to travel, who they plan to travel with, and we've definitely seen a shift to more people. Saying it's still couples with my partner is the number one answer, but a lot more shift towards traveling with a group of family and friends, which river cruising is perfect for, especially when there are choices of excursions because everybody can go and do their own thing that interests them during the day. I mean one of the key barriers, I think, to planning a group travel trip is the person who has to plan all of it right and make everyone happy. But a river cruise is so easy in that respect because the dining's all taken care of, the excursions are there, people can pick and choose within the group what they want to do, and then you come together back on the ship in the evening, you know for dinner, you come back for lunch, whatever it may be, and so you get your group experience. But everybody can be themselves at the same time.
Speaker 1:And then the other shift is towards solo travel, and Avalon really does well with that, probably because we have a great offer for solo travelers that we waive the single supplement on our cruises. In Europe it is capacity controlled, it is the number one actually, and on the Mekong also it's the number one fastest revenue managed sold out offer that we have. But what a wonderful thing to be able to travel as a solo without paying the single supplement. Our single supplement is pretty reasonable. It's 55% in in under normal circumstances, but to have that waived as a promotional offer I think is one of the reasons that we attract a lot of solo travelers. And you know you talked about guided guided land tours as well as river cruising. They're both really perfect for solo travelers.
Speaker 1:And you know, just speaking from my own experience, I am married but I travel on river cruises all the time by myself and not always just hosting, not always hosting a group or something. I just go to experience the ship and talk to our guests and river cruising there's always somebody who will invite you to eat with them, like you mentioned. You know the experience that your father had. There's always somebody who's going to invite you to sit with them if they see you on your own. You can also choose to eat on your own if you want to. I mean, sometimes I just want to eat by myself and so I usually don't go to the dining room for that. I'll go to the Panorama Bistro and sit outside.
Speaker 1:And land vacations are very similar in that respect. You always find like minded people who you want to get to know and who have have similar interests. On our excursions the fact that we have choices on Avalon, you're going to meet people who also were interested in going to the cooking class, for example, so it's a very easy way to make friends. I mean, I've been on big ship cruises by myself, also for work, and I could not see anybody I knew all day and you know you don't get invited to sit with people at dinner. It's a very different experience, I would say, to go on a big ship, you know 3,000 passenger ship on your own, and I think that's why river cruising and land vacations are so popular for solo travelers.
Speaker 2:We'll be right back. In today's fast-paced travel industry, businesses face constant challenges keeping up with new technologies, meeting ever-evolving customer expectations and promoting products effectively. The real struggle Managing it all in-house. That's where Travel Tech steps in to transform your business. With over 25 years of experience, travel Tech is one of the most trusted names in travel technology, offering tailored solutions to fit your unique needs. They make it easy to create seamless, bookable websites, manage and promote products and automate everyday tasks, giving your team more time to focus on what matters most your customers. Plus Travel Tech is the go-to name in cruise technology, with cutting-edge solutions for tour operators as well. Plus Travel Tech has just launched Tech Talk, a new podcast for travel professionals by travel professionals. Explore the stories behind the biggest innovations in travel. Visit traveltechcom slash traveltrends or tune in to Tech Talk on Spotify and Apple. That's traveltechcom slash traveltrends. Or tune in to Tech Talk on Spotify and Apple. That's traveltechcom slash traveltrends and Tech Talk on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Speaker 2:Did you know that over 20% of people who purchase a ticket will upgrade to a refundable option when given the choice? By offering Refund Protect, you make it easy for your customers to protect their ticket purchase against emergency circumstances like illness, injury, accidents and more. Whether you're an airline, hotel group, tour operator, ticketing platform, ota or transport solution, when you partner with protect group, your customers get peace of mind and you generate extra revenue. With a trust pilot score of 4.8 stars and over 31,000 reviews, they treat your customers as their own, earning the highest customer ratings in the industry. To find out more, check out Protect Group at protectgroup that's protectgroup.
Speaker 2:Then you have to meet our good friends at Flight Center, the travel-obsessed experts ready to make your next dream trip a reality. For over 40 years they've been opening up the world to travelers from the UK, australia, new Zealand and now. Flight Center Canada is celebrating an incredible milestone 30 years of helping Canadians explore the globe. From their first store in Vancouver in 1995 to becoming the official travel agency partner of the Toronto Raptors this year, they've been at the forefront of delivering travel experiences. At Flight Centre, travel is more than a passion. It's their expertise. From flights and accommodations to cruises and tours and even business travel, they handle it all. Whether it's crafting a tailor-made trip or tackling group bookings, they've got you covered. Whether it's crafting a tailor-made trip or tackling group bookings, they've got you covered, plus, with exclusive perks like their new bundle and save $500 on tour and cruise packages.
Speaker 2:There's never been a better time to plan your getaway From the smallest getaways to the biggest bucket list trips, your travel goals are just a call or a click away. Visit flightcenterca slash travel trends to explore the latest deals, learn about emerging travel trends and start planning your next trip. And now back to the show is that people will travel to destinations that they're more familiar with or they feel more comfortable traveling to, and they gradually get out of their comfort zone. But that's also something that seems to have changed that, rather than necessarily going to Europe first and then going to South America, some people may just book the trip to Egypt because they just always wanted to do a river cruise and they've always wanted to go to Egypt.
Speaker 2:So what I'm keen to know is how the destinations that you have introduced, how you've intentionally rolled them out, and if is there an instance where you are seeing that you know you're expanding your portfolio based on repeat business? People want to continue traveling with Avalon, so they want to. You know new ships, new rivers, new countries is that part of what's driving it? But also, when new customers are entering into the river cruise segment? Are you seeing people just jumping right into some of those new itineraries as opposed to going through a graduated process? So tell us a little bit about the destinations.
Speaker 1:And also too, if you wouldn't mind highlighting, typically the choice is the Rhine or the Danube, which is, you know, has been that way since the beginning of river cruising. Most likely, I think it's because of the destinations that you visit on those, the kind of breadth of different countries, and it's probably the most traditional. And it's probably the most traditional and I used air quotes that people can't see, since this is a podcast when I said that of river cruise destinations. So it's what you think of with the river cruise. You think of sailing past castles, vineyards, climbing up a hillside, going through scenic valleys, major cities and charming, halfed, you know, towns and villages. So it's everything people think about with river cruising on those two rivers. So they are definitely our biggest volume producers still, and kind of shift year over year, the last few years it's been the Rhine more than the Danube in terms of you know where the majority of our volume is coming from, or our highest volume, I guess I should say.
Speaker 1:I think a new generation of river cruiser is not necessarily picking that as their first river cruise, so we're seeing a little bit of a shift. You would think that the lower Danube, which you know we start in Budapest and sail to Bucharest, so to Romania. So you go through Croatia, bulgaria, serbia and Romania on that itinerary. You would think that that would be the most seasoned of river cruisers. That it's. You know. You've been on the Rhine, you've been on the Danube, you've been to France, so you pick that. It's interesting how many people it's their first time river cruise and I think it's kind of the more well-traveled river cruisers. So somebody who's traveled a lot, and maybe they traveled a lot on their own, but going to those destinations on your own is a little bit more challenging. So we do see that as an interesting entry point to river for some people. And then they find they like the style and that it's not, you know, inflexible and you know that some of the maybe the misconceptions they had about river cruising and then they go and experience other destinations.
Speaker 1:In terms of year over year growth, france has kind of consistently been a top producer there for us and it's one of the reasons that we did just add a new destination. So in 2025, we launched our new itinerary on the Garonne and Dordogne rivers, sailing in Bordeaux. So that's absolutely from feedback. From our wish list survey that I mentioned, france always comes back as the number one destination that people want to go to next, and we see absolute growth in that. And then the other new destination that we added for our repeat travelers is the Douro River in Portugal, and that one sells out the fastest. So there are lots of different levers in all of this. For example, 2025 was essentially sold out until we just recently added a couple of departures in November, and 2026 is more than half sold at this point.
Speaker 2:Well, pam, I'm so enjoying this conversation with you, and, given that you are the president of this incredible river cruising brand, you have a unique perspective on the trends that are shaping this industry, and so that is always the theme of this podcast, and I'm keen to get your take from your vantage point. That is what has driven this interest in river cruising. What are some of the big trends that you're focusing on?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, in terms of what's driven the growth, I think there are a lot of things. There's the, you know, somewhat post-pandemic, but I think even leading into the pandemic, interest in more immersive travel and, you know, really unique experiences, and that's something that river cruising delivers. Also, the idea of slower travel and you know the speed of, you know, spending a little bit more time in destinations and, you know, doing it in a more sustainable way, I think, is another, another trend that river cruising answers. And then, honestly, the trade has been a huge, huge advocate for river cruising and we started with the ASTA River Cruise Expo in 2022. And you know, we took one ship that year, another ship the second year. The year after we had three, two ships, and last year we actually had three ships at the ASTA River Expo.
Speaker 1:So the number of travel advisors who've raised their hands and I shouldn't only talk about ASTA, I'm going to talk about ACTA too, because I'm guessing we have some Canadian listeners who've raised their hands and said they want to specialize in river cruising and who come and invest in themselves and their education I think has been a huge reason why this industry is growing so much. And so that's the ASTA River Expo. We created, along with ACTA, a Canadian version of it. It's run only by Avalon and we do a cruise, so it's a little bit different than what the Astor River Expo is, but that again, you know a huge number of Canadians this will be our third year doing it who have raised their hands and said they want to specialize in river cruising. So you know there are a lot of different factors of consumer interest and then also trade focus that I think are really playing toward that growth.
Speaker 2:Well, you mentioned two really important factors there one, sustainability and then also the trade. Just to dive in a little bit more into sustainability, I'd love to hear some of the initiatives that you have underway, and the reason I ask that is because it certainly has been an overarching trend post COVID that people have taken much more of an interest in reducing their footprint and the impact they're having on the environment. So what are some of the initiatives that Avalon has underway and as a reason why customers or travel agents would choose Avalon?
Speaker 1:Sure. Well, I still am not sure that, as an industry, people are necessarily choosing a brand for sustainability widely. I think it's something that is an expectation that as a company, we're doing the right thing, and if we're not doing the right thing, people would be upset by it. But whether they're making that choice in the first place. Yet and I say yet because I think it's coming and I think there are more and more people who are choosing based on that. So it's the right thing to do.
Speaker 1:And regardless of that, we've made huge initiatives. So we have zero single use plastics on board other than in the kitchen, where they're required by health and safety standards, but things like these. You know little amenities in the bathrooms. With the L'Oan products, we now have those in pump bottles. We no longer provide bottled water. Instead, we actually encourage guests to bring their own water bottle, because a water bottle has to be used something like 500 times. There are a few different studies out there, but I think the most agreed upon number is 500 times before. It's better than using bottled water. So asking guests to do that and we have water bottles, if they don't bring their own, that they can use. So those were some big changes.
Speaker 1:We also moved toward much more digital communication, which has eliminated almost 90% of our paper use. So, instead of providing maps and port information and daily newsletters on paper which, by the way, I used to take a picture of and then toss them in the trash we realized there are a lot of people who are doing that and taking a picture of it. So let's just deliver it digitally to those people and then somebody who wants it printed we're certainly happy to do, and that goes with brochures also. We used to produce huge brochures and send them out to our travel advisor partners. We still do have a selling guide is what we call our new version. It's smaller, it's for the trade community. It actually has the only call to action to it is to go see your travel advisor and has an entire page dedicated to why to use a travel advisor. We also I'm trying to think of other things because there's been so much that's been done In 2022, you know we are very much committed to finding alternative fuel when it's possible. It's not really possible yet for us. So we do have a carbon footprint and we partnered with an organization called Trees for Travel that offsets the carbon footprint. It only takes two trees per guest on average for a one-week cruise, and we take care of that for all of our guests and donate those two trees on their behalf to offset the carbon footprint of their crews.
Speaker 1:There are quite a few other things. Probably one of my favorite is our partnership with Landmine Design, which is an organization in Cambodia based right on the border between Cambodia and Thailand, and it's a community that can't be farmed because it's a landmine village, and so the people living there, and especially the women living there, are very much at risk for human trafficking because of the lack of jobs and the proximity to Thailand. And so a woman who's actually from Colorado, which is where we're based in the US our US headquarters are we're based in Switzerland, actually, but we met her because I'm here in the US Our US headquarters are we're based in Switzerland, actually, but we met her because I'm here in the US and she taught them how to make jewelry, these women, how to make jewelry, and so it started out as a trade show gift. Instead of giving pens or other tchotchkes that people might leave in their hotel room, we had the women of Landmine make little bracelets for us, and so the assumption was, even if somebody left it behind, which they probably wouldn't, because they're beautiful also that it did good in the purchase of it. And so we started that and employed 12 women the first year.
Speaker 1:With Landmine. It's grown to about 26 women that are employed through the orders that we make, because recently on board, for example, we needed little bags for the earpieces that you use on the sightseeing with the listening devices, and instead of just ordering them, we decide we look to see if the women from landmine could sew them. So so many things happening. All of our ships have the green award, which is important. You don't have the Green Award, you can't dock in Amsterdam. So a lot of different initiatives that we have going.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great. I appreciate sharing those and I certainly it's become that much more meaningful to me and I know it has to so many travelers, as more and more examples of companies that are certainly doing the right thing and moving past some of the, I guess, the initial phases of showing an interest to actually making a meaningful difference. And the other thing I wanted to ask you about that trade and B2C side and obviously, depending on how much you can share on that, I mean I'm genuinely curious to know. Post-covid, certainly travel advisors had this incredible resurgence and we did a series on that.
Speaker 2:In season four of Travel Trends, we did a deep dive into travel agencies and Flight Center has been one of our sponsors and we have seen a lot of interest from travel advisors in the Travel Trends show because they're keen to learn about different brands, just like we're discussing today with Avalon, and so I know how important travel agents are to businesses like Avalon and Globus and that have relied on the trade for many years.
Speaker 2:But I know a lot of brands are also really investing in their B2C marketing brands like Intrepid, of course, they're in the adventure travel space and when we talked to James Thornton he was highlighting just how much trade business is generated from B2C marketing, and I certainly remember that from all my years at the Travel Corporation. Literally half of the leads that we would generate from B2C, like from consumer direct marketing, would convert with trade partners. And this is where being channel agnostic was very important to our growth, because it wasn't a zero-sum game where you're trying to shift market share from B2B to B2C. I'm saying that that's obviously something that you know, but for all of our listeners, there always sometimes tends to be a feeling of an adversarial position. So I'm asking this question in the spirit of where are you seeing the growth? Are you seeing the growth on B2B and B2C, and how do you see those two channels complementing each other?
Speaker 1:Well, I think that the reality is, customers will book the way that they want to book, and so we want to be able to take them if they were to call us directly. But that's certainly not our goal. Our goal in advertising is to grow Avalon Waterways and the awareness of Avalon Waterways, and so marketing to consumers that's the purpose of it, and our call to action is always to see your travel advisor. So you know, our goal with consumer marketing is to drive business to the trade. The trade is our lifeblood. The vast majority of our bookings come through the trade and so you know that is we recognize it's our responsibility to build the demand for Avalon for them, and that's why we do that. So this year, actually, trade growth is outpacing direct growth. It does change every year, but this year, being 2025, the trade is actually outperforming direct. So and we're totally happy with that, it's not a competition between the two. It's about how do we grow our brand completely. You know, all together.
Speaker 2:We'll be right back. Attention travel operators, destination management companies and accommodation providers. Managing payments doesn't have to be a source of stress. Meet Flywire, the modern payments platform built specifically for the unique needs of the of stress. Meet Flywire, the modern payments platform built specifically for the unique needs of the travel industry. With Flywire, you can collect payments from travelers worldwide with ease, enjoy faster payouts in your preferred currency, reduce payment fees and offer your guests flexible, localized payment options they're familiar with. Not only does Flywire simplify your operations, but it also helps elevate your guest experience and boost your bottom line. That means you can stop worrying about payments and focus on what you do best creating unforgettable travel experiences. Discover how Flywire can help your business save time, save money and deliver truly seamless transactions.
Speaker 2:Visit flywirecom slash travel trends to learn more. That's flywirecom slash traveltrends to learn more. That's flywirecom slash traveltrends. Attention travelers and travel advisors, are you looking to elevate your travel experience beyond the ordinary? Then you have to say hello to our good friends at Collette, where guided travel gets a premium upgrade. For over 100 years, collette has been crafting expertly guided tours that go beyond the stereotypes. With over 170 tours across all seven continents, colette offers something for every type of traveler, from culturally immersive small group journeys to single city stays and even river cruises. And with their industry-leading travel protection plan, you can cancel for any reason up to 24 hours before departure. Plus, when you book air with Colette, they even offer a private chauffeur service to and from the airport. Discover why travelers love Colette and why guided travel is thriving. Join the evolution of travel today at GoColettecom. Your next adventure awaits. That's GoColettecom.
Speaker 2:Are you looking for ways to grow your travel business through paid media and optimized SEO? Then you have to check out our friends at Propeleccom. They are the leading digital agency for growth in travel and tourism. Propelec offers bold digital marketing strategies to ensure your travel company's success. They have a remarkable methodology that has actually been implemented by TravelAIcom, and they are a leading SEO agency globally and offer a range of resources a podcast of their own, a blog on their website, Propelliccom that's P-R-O-P-E-L-L-I-Ccom. And don't forget to mention Travel Trends for your free marketing audit.
Speaker 2:Now back to the show, and there's another area I wanted to ask you about too, and that is technology, and we're having this conversation. It's near the middle of 2025, everyone's talking about AI, us included, and obviously that's an important part of the technology that's now available to travel companies. But when you think about technology, I'm assuming that a lot of the focus is on the guest experience or on the reservation platform. What are you looking at in terms of investing in technology and where are you on the journey with technology as an organization? Because I recognize most travel companies are not technology companies. They're travel companies first and they're always trying to develop their technology. Where is Avalon in that regard?
Speaker 1:So we're part of the Globus family of brands, which we've talked about, and so we rely on the platform of the Globus family of Brands for our technology. We've been in an interesting mode for the last couple of years where we've been actually doing a global integration of our technology. So our offices, our selling offices in Australia, for example, had a different selling system, and so did the UK. North America was all on one, and then the operating system in Switzerland for Avalon was on a different system, and so we've been going through this big process of integrating all of our systems, which seems a little odd that it was purposeful to have this set up. It was, and now it's purposeful to not be in that position. So that's all done, which is a huge accomplishment, and now it's okay. What can we do better and how can we improve? So we just launched a brand new travel advisor portal, which is getting really great reviews from the trade, and we're certainly always looking for any other feedback on that. Our websites are constantly being looked at for usability, to make them easy for consumers to navigate to find the choices that we offer. We're bringing in a new CRM that's an exciting thing that's coming which again will just help us in tracking our customers, their behavior, and getting that information back to our trade partners, because that's the goal with the CRM is to work together and, you know, help them to grow that business with us. So, and then the other big project that's underway is our full customer journey, which you know is kind of the most important thing in my mind, although every single one of these is important. The most important thing in my mind, although every single one of these is important.
Speaker 1:We were one of the first adopters of an on-trip app and when we did it it was amazing. It was probably 10 or 11 years ago now the greatest, latest and newest technology, and it's not the latest and greatest and newest technology anymore. And we recognize it's a little bit disjointed that the app serves one purpose and then, if you want to go do something else, it takes you outside of the app to a different platform, and we wanted to all be seamless. So that project's underway too. So so many things happening. But a lot has been done for the trade, especially with the new advisor portal, all new training with the GFOB University and Avalon Waterway Specialist Program. So a lot of things in place to help support them. Because, as you said, the trade has grown a lot since the pandemic and a lot of new advisors and at-home advisors, which is a huge shift. So finding ways for them to work very easily and to get the education that they need it is really important.
Speaker 2:Well, just hitting on the travel agent portal, which I know is so important to travel advisors, as you well aware, you guys have invested in and rolled that out. I know that is something that is often talked about as a competitive advantage between travel brands, because travel agents, as much as they love a brand, they want to make sure you're easy to work with and easy to book because, they're trying to multitask and do so many things, so that's an interesting call.
Speaker 2:The other thing, obviously, when you talk about the app and you think about the in-destination experience, that's obviously one of the things that continues to evolve as you introduce new destinations and we've been talking about that. You've highlighted how you've really grown this brand beyond Europe to really become a global river cruising brand and, of course, you operate even outside of river cruising, if we think about South America and the Galapagos. So you've got all these new destinations and different itineraries really keen to get a sense of where you're seeing the most traction. So, again, thinking about the trends in river cruising, what are the destinations the new destinations that you're introducing that are seeing the most traction, or what are some of the existing itineraries that are the strongest performers?
Speaker 1:So in terms of volume, it's absolutely the Rhine and the Danube that kind of go one versus the other every year in terms of what's the top selling the most volume. But if I were to look at biggest growth or most successful new, the answer is a little bit different. So the Douro was launched last year in Portugal with the brand new Avalon Alegria that we built and launched in 2024. Sold out almost instantly. It's basically sold out for 2025 also and about half sold for 2026. So that has certainly been a huge success.
Speaker 1:The other destination that continues to always show a huge amount of interest and keeps growing is France, and so we had a ship on the Seine, we have one on the Rhone and this year in 2025, we just put the artistry to, we did a total refresh and refurbishment of the ship and moved her into Bordeaux to do the Garonne and Dordogne rivers. So that's the other latest newest because of the interest in France, and I think I've talked a little bit about our wish list survey a couple times maybe, as we've been talking, and France is always number one on the Avalon Travelers wish list of where they want to go next.
Speaker 2:Yeah, france is where we're headed. This summer. Our kids are graduating high school and we've actually done a couple of river cruises. Yeah, I know it's. And for Europe, you know Europe is. This is the part I love about Europe you can go back to it different seasons and there's so much of Europe to explore. And yeah, we haven't the kids haven't we did a French river cruise trip. We, we did a French river cruise trip. We went from Paris up to Normandy and it was spectacular. We haven't done the South, like Burgundy, but we're going to spend some time in Provence and the South of France, which I'm so looking forward to.
Speaker 1:But so even those destinations. Yeah, that's among my favorite, probably my favorite when people ask me which, I know you're never supposed to pick a favorite. It's like picking a favorite child, but I love Southern France. You're going to have an amazing time.
Speaker 2:That's awesome. Thanks, I'm so looking forward to it. What about yourself in terms of your travel plans, some of the places you're planning to head to? I know you obviously travel a lot for work and you're also highlighting, too, that you just like getting on the ship and being able to have that time, even traveling independently, if you will, without the family. What traveling independently, if you will, without the family? What are some of the trips you have planned and what are some of the new itineraries that Avalon's looking to introduce in the future?
Speaker 1:Sure, well, I'm one of the worst travel planners for myself. I will admit that I don't have a vacation planned for this year Doesn't mean it's not going to happen. It'll happen eventually. But my poor husband just has to wait around till I come up with an idea. I guess, or he does. But I do have some plans to get on some of our ships.
Speaker 1:I'm heading, actually, to Switzerland for a meeting and then need to go to the UK for another meeting and I have the weekend in between and I'm really excited to jump on the Avalon Vista to see some crew members, which this is kind of a fun story we had a ship in Myanmar when it was possible to operate there.
Speaker 1:It's currently not possible, and so the most amazing crew on that ship and we were able to set up and work with a crewing agency in Myanmar to be able to employ those crew members in Europe, and so I haven't seen them.
Speaker 1:They've been working for us in Europe for a couple of years and I would just really like to see them again, because I was the one who built that ship and was heavily involved in the launch of it in Myanmar and it was heartbreaking when we had to stop operations and they've just been so genuine in their appreciation of getting the opportunity to come and work for us in Europe and I am excited to see them again and thank them for still being part of the Avalon family.
Speaker 1:So that's one trip and then I'll be on the Akta River Summit, which is on a Christmas market cruise I hear it's sold out and then at some point I'll try to travel with guests again this season. So I like to go on at least one cruise, sometimes more when it's a travel advisor event, which is what the active cruise is. I was on the ASTA River Summit, some of the post cruises from that, and we did an inaugural in Bordeaux. So I've been on ships a bit this year already, but I like to do one that is not a trade event. It's just with customers and getting to know them and hear what they like and don't like, because we really are a customer focused brand in terms of how we develop product, how we change any services on board, whatever it may be, and hearing it directly from them in person is always important.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting when you mentioned Myanmar, because certainly Southeast Asia is one of my favorite places to travel. I've been there a number of times and I've done like a few months backpacking and with Thailand, vietnam, cambodia, I've always wanted to do the Mekong river cruise experience. I think that that, to me, is high up there on my list because such stunningly beautiful scenery. You've done that one then.
Speaker 1:I have. I've done that quite a few times. I've in my. In my former role I was the person involved in building those ships and we have currently the Avalon Saigon and it's a beautiful ship, only 18 staterooms, and we built a really small ship with a purpose there. We wanted to be able to sail directly out of Ho Chi Minh City of Saigon port, so most of the cruise lines you have to drive a couple of hours to a place called Mito to get on the ship and then start sailing. And that sailing between Saigon, the city, and Mito is so interesting. It's such a busy waterway with so much hustle and bustle happening and just not having to have that coach ride is a huge advantage. And then on the other side, in Cambodia, we actually fly from Phnom Penh to Siem Reap, taking out about a five hour to six hour bus ride. Me, in terms of you know the interactions with locals and how much they embrace having us as visitors and are curious and want to talk to you and meet you. It's really, it's such a great experience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you mentioned that transport and just how important that is to get. When my wife and I were in Saigon, we went to explore the Coochie Tunnels and we got picked up our transfer from our hotel to take us to the coach that drove us out there. We ended up getting picked up on motorcycles and my wife, which was a surprise to both of us when these two gentlemen turned up and told us to get on. But they seemed to know our name, so we trusted them and we got on the back of these motorcycles and whizzed through traffic, which was incredibly thrilling because obviously it's like a school of fish, right? People somehow move out of your way and the traffic flows. It seems wild, especially to an outsider, but when we got to the destination, my wife got off on the wrong side and she got what I guess is known as a saigon tattoo. She put her the inside of her calf against the the hot muffler oh no, yeah, and uh got a terrible burn that affected a good part of the trip for the next couple of weeks.
Speaker 1:But this is where, like getting the right transfers and getting right, there was like well, we use tons of different transportation forms because it makes it really fun, but motorcycles isn't one of them.
Speaker 2:We have cyclos.
Speaker 1:So the little you know, the bikes that you sit in the basket, in the front is our sightseeing.
Speaker 1:In Phnom Penh we have an ox cart ride, we have tuk-tuks, so we try to give people a huge different variety of transportation modes that are really local and unique. We go and meet, you know you travel by sandpan along the river and in Vietnam you go and meet a man who crafts the little small sandpan boats. So it's such an amazing itinerary. But yeah, motorcycles aren't on the menu yet and probably won't be based on the story you just told.
Speaker 2:No, definitely avoid that. I'm glad our listeners know that. Avoid that. If I've saved one person a Saigon tattoo by telling that story, it was definitely worth it.
Speaker 2:Get off on the non-muffler side. I think that's the left side, but yeah, and the cyclos are so much fun. But we're obviously we're talking to someone I've cruised. You're a total expert in this. But to bring all of our newcomers along with us, whether they be someone that's listening to this that has never river cruised before, that's a consumer that's trying to make a decision on where they're going to go and who they're going to travel with, or a travel advisor that wants to be in a great position to be able to advise their customer on the brand they should choose and the ship and the destination.
Speaker 1:What are the tips that you typically give to first time river cruisers? Well, you know, I think that it's really important to know that all of the brands are different. Every brand has a unique vibe to it in terms of the decor, let's say, the types of experiences they offer, how flexible it is, or if it's, you know, a one choice for the excursions, or if there are multiple choices. If you're an active person, is there a fitness center? Do they have bikes or not? And if you're not an active person, maybe that doesn't matter. So obviously I would love it if every single person chooses Avalon and it's the right brand for them. But I know the reality is that there are going to be brands that fit every single traveler and their personality. So, you know, obviously you know looking at all of the brands, and so you brought up travel advisors. Using a travel advisor who's very knowledgeable about that is a great way to you know, talk to them. They'll ask you all the right questions and find out what brand might be the best fit for you.
Speaker 1:So the consumer side, I think that, hopefully, and then the itinerary, I think is also a major. You know what are the, what are the places you want to see and how do you want to experience them. So, on the travel advisor side, I absolutely recommend taking a river cruise, if you have not, and or going to the river expos that are being done both by ASTA and by ACTA. So you know, seeing that is especially the ASTA River Expo, having every, almost every cruise line there with a ship. Even if you don't get to sail on every ship, you go, get to get to dine on all the different ships, you get to go to educational sessions on the ships, you get to stay on board ships, and so if you have a consumer coming and asking you about a brand, you have now direct knowledge of that brand and can tell them what the differences are between the different brands and help them choose which one's right for them. So I think those would be my tips to either side of the equation.
Speaker 2:Those are great tips.
Speaker 2:The one thing I'm just going to add and just put it out there to anyone that's still considering a river cruise and is maybe not taking one yet because they don't think they're a cruiser there's a huge difference between ocean cruising and river cruising and if you are nervous about the water or the open water or just, some people obviously get seasick or just feel claustrophobic and there's some of these things that the thing I was amazed by, Pam, when I did a series on ocean cruising in season four we had Virgin Voyages, we had a number of Princess, and when I was speaking to people and kind of gauging some of the questions they were keen for me to ask, one of the things that's very clear was that there's just like a third of potential travelers just are not interested in cruising as a category, and so one of the difficulties for ocean cruise is trying to convince people that they would be interested in that type of ocean cruise.
Speaker 2:They're kind of shut themselves down to it and I think there's a bit of crossover to river cruise. People don't think they're a cruiser and then they don't necessarily embrace river cruising. And I just want to say to everyone out there that is not into ocean cruising. You're perfect for river cruising because it is a completely different experience. It is as you described with the ships, of being able to look out the smaller group nature of it, and I'm someone who's a bit susceptible to to motion sickness. Unfortunately, it's just the way that I'm wired and so I but I had no problem in a river cruise, Like I just was not an issue.
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's very little motion if any ever.
Speaker 1:So, um, yeah, and my mother has that issue also and has never had any issues on our ships. So, um, what you said is 100% true. You know it is a cruise, so it has all of the advantages of a cruise in that, um, you know, it's an all inclusive price point in general, um, you know, or mostly inclusive, with beer and wine at lunch and dinner, which not every ocean cruise, by the way, has this, in fact, most don't. But people think of it as all inclusive because of the food being included. But River takes it even to the next level with, you know, drinks being included, excursions being included, diluted, you pack and unpack once. Which I think is the biggest advantage of cruising, quite honestly, is that it makes it super easy to travel between multiple places.
Speaker 1:But river cruising has the advantages of not having the huge numbers of people on board, of being able to dock right in the heart of the destination. You know, if you're a non-cruiser, you might fear the idea of, well, how long does it take to get all these people off of the ships? And, um, you know, on a, on a river cruise, there's never a wait. There aren't big lines for anything, um, to get on and off for the buffets, for the bar, whatever it may be. It's just, it's a small group of people. You know, on average for Avalon, about 150 people, um, people on a ship, and so there's just plenty of space for everyone and no lines and no waiting.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, those are definitely many of the highlights and the reason that we rush back to do another river cruise again, and certainly it's one of my favorite ways to travel. The other thing I wanted to ask you I just have two more questions for you, pam, but one of them. Given that you oversee this global brand and have done for a number of years you came up on the product side and I've so enjoyed this conversation I want to get your take on what the future of river cruising is and clearly, obviously I'm not asking for the futuristic version of what does it look like in 2050. I mean, what do you think over the next five years, let's say, as river cruise continues to evolve the on-ship experience, the destinations I'm sure a lot of what we love about river cruising needs to remain the same, but how do you see this industry evolving in the next three to five years?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean there are a lot of studies out there that show the size of the industry potentially doubling in five years. So that doesn't necessarily mean double the number of ships. Double the economic impact, I guess, is the better way to put it in terms of the growth. So we know that there's a new entrant coming with Celebrity coming in, and you know it's unclear how big their fleet will be. There have been a couple of different numbers. You know Viking's on a growth, their fleet will be. There have been a couple different numbers. You know Vikings on a growth path still we're on a growth path. You know every river cruise line has plans to grow to meet that demand. That's expected.
Speaker 1:So I don't I'm not concerned about that. Yet A lot of people have said oh, doesn't that worry you. You know some of the ports are really crowded already. There are so many places along these rivers that are still available to see and that are very interested in working as a community with river cruise lines. So I think that that's an obligation that we all have to the industry.
Speaker 1:You know, when you think about a lot of the ports that river cruising you know goes to so let's say, dernsteinstein, melk, if you're not a river cruiser, you've probably never heard of these places, and they're little villages in Austria that you probably wouldn't have gone to or never heard of if you hadn't gone on a river cruise, and now they've become so popular. So what are the other places like that along the rivers that want to have visitors come, and there are plenty. We recently partnered with Ebes, which is another village just a little bit away from the Vakau Valley. That is very easy and accessible and has things to see and do, and so finding places like that the area in Hungary at the Danube Bend with Estragom and Visegrad I think we're one of the only lines that goes to those places. So finding these other and new gems to should be concerned about, and we should be thinking about it and making sure.
Speaker 1:I once attended a session on sustainability and the question. It was a man from PricewaterhouseCoopers who said that your main question should be would they want you back? Would the community want you back? And I think if there's a community that doesn't want us back, that we have a problem. So we all need to be thinking and making sure that the communities consistently want us back as an industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's for sure. And that's where you know travel can be such a force for good by bringing money to local economies, you know, in certain areas of the world, lifting people out of poverty. So when you talk about places like Myanmar, and you know, and both Southeast Asia and South America both have that in common and so there are so many benefits to travel. But, as you rightly pointed out, pam, we have to do so in the right way, and certainly this conversation, to me, has been really eye-opening. I've been really looking forward to speaking to you, especially after connecting with Steve at Globus.
Speaker 2:I was really looking forward to our conversation as part of the River Cruise series and I'm delighted we had this opportunity to connect with each other. Even though we hadn't met before. It feels like I've actually known you for many years I think it's just because we both worked in the industry and I certainly look forward to seeing you at some point in the near future in person. But, yeah, I wanted to say thanks so much for joining us, but I also want to make sure that all of our listeners know how they can connect with you. How can they learn more about Avalon for consumers and for travel agents that will you know, take interest after this to reach out to Avalon. How best for them to do so.
Speaker 1:Yeah, our website's avalonwaterwayscom. So you know, going there to learn more about the brand as, or reaching out to, your travel advisor. You know, for consumers, for travel advisors, I absolutely recommend that you go onto our travel advisor portal If you don't already know your BDM. We have a big team of trade exclusive BDMs who are all over the country, countries being both Canada and the US, and so, you know, find your local BDM. They will work with you. You know their job is to help build your business. They're not just there to drop off brochures. Their role is to be your business partner, to talk through what your plans are, what your goals are, and help I should say what your goals are and then help you make a plan. You know and be a partner in that. They'll do consumer nights with you if you want to do groups, whatever it may be. So definitely find out who your local BDM is and connect with them, and that's the best way to help build your business.
Speaker 2:That's great. Well, thank you for this, pam. I know you're off to Switzerland next week, so I wish you safe travels and a wonderful summer, and I look forward to keeping in touch. Thanks again.
Speaker 1:Yes, me too. It's been a real pleasure to talk to you, Dan.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on this latest episode of Travel Trends. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Pam Hoffey, the president of Avalon. I thought it was a perfect way to wrap up our River Cruise series and I just wanted to say thanks again to the team at Captio for sponsoring our River Cruise series. That's K-A-P-T-I-Ocom if you want to find out more information about their technology solution designed specifically for multi-day travel brands. And then next week we're actually going to be speaking to the chief technology officer over at Expedia before we dive into our final series of season five, the in-destination experiences sponsored by our friends over at Pernod Ricard. We're already working away on season six, which will launch in September.
Speaker 2:So if you have suggestions for content or guests that you want to see featured, by all means reach out to us. You can reach out to me anytime by email, danattraveltrendspodcastcom. And don't forget, we do have clips and highlights of all these conversations throughout the River Cruise series and specifically with our conversation today with Pam Hoffey from Avalon, so be sure to check those out at Travel Trends Podcast on LinkedIn, instagram and YouTube. And then, don't forget, we have launched our AI Summit for October 28th and 29th 2025. So be sure to register for more details at TravelTrendsPodcastcom. Until next week, safe travels.
