Travel Trends with Dan Christian
#1 B2B Travel Podcast. If you are looking to stay ahead in the travel industry, this new podcast hits all the highlights! The Travel Trends Podcast is where industry leaders converge to share & shape the future. Whether you're an emerging entrepreneur, a seasoned industry executive, or a dedicated travel professional, you’ll be able to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving landscape.
Uncover valuable insights, innovative strategies, and meaningful connections that will elevate your travel business or career to new heights.
Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Exploring the Evolving World of River Cruises with Tauck
What happens when 100 years of travel expertise converge with Europe’s iconic rivers? In an engaging discussion with Steve Spivak, Tauck’s Vice President of Global Sales & Reservations, we uncover how this family-owned company’s “small is big” philosophy elevates river cruising into a truly exceptional experience. Since its founding in 1925, when Arthur Tauck guided six guests on a New England adventure in a rented Studebaker, the company has grown while maintaining a steadfast commitment to its core principles.
Tauck’s river cruising approach embodies this legacy, offering a more exclusive experience by hosting just 84-130 guests on ships that competitors often pack with 190. Spaciousness is key, with 80% of their cabins exceeding 225 square feet, ensuring unrivaled comfort. Unlike many operators, each ship is staffed by four director-level professionals rather than a single cruise director, delivering unparalleled attention to every detail.
The concept of "truly all-inclusive" defines Tauck’s philosophy. Guests enjoy premium spirits, fine wines, gratuities, transfers, and every excursion without additional charges or upsells. Unique experiences, such as after-hours access to the Louvre or exclusive dining in private Viennese palaces, set Tauck apart. Solo travelers are also warmly welcomed, as their Category 1 cabins are offered without a single supplement.
Looking ahead, Tauck’s deliberate growth reflects its dedication to quality over quantity. With two new French ships set to debut in 2026, their focus remains on preserving the guest experience rather than expanding rapidly to meet investor demands—an advantage of their family-owned model. Whether you’re new to river cruising or seeking to understand what makes operators unique, Tauck’s thoughtful approach and century-long expertise promise an unforgettable journey through Europe’s storied waterways.
👉 Listen to Lessons in Exploring the Evolving World of River Cruises Now
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So much of the evolution and innovation in this company comes from listening to our guests. The most important thing we can do is listen to our guests and listen to our travel advisor partners, who represent our guests and what they want, and so, as we see an opportunity to deliver the talc experience in a different way that is appealing to our customers, that's when we start to dip our toe into new and different ways of traveling, and that you know that, combined with always looking to be pioneers, is how we got into river cruising Always looking to be pioneers is how we got into river cruising.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to the latest episode of Travel Trends. This is your host, dan Christian, and we're continuing our deep dive into the world of river cruises. This is episode two of four, which is sponsored by our friends over at Captio. That's K-A-P-T-I-O, and, as you heard on the very first episode last week, when we were joined by Ragnar, the founder of Captio, that's K-A-P-T-I-O, and, as you heard on the very first episode last week, when we were joined by Ragnar, the founder of Captio, they are an industry leading travel tech firm based in Iceland that has been exclusively focused on developing the most advanced multi-day tour platform with partners such as Intrepid and Oddly Travel, and they are now expanding into River Cruise and, interestingly, today's partner, tauk, is the key reason that expansion is taking place. So we're going to get into some more detail on that as we speak to Steve Spivak, the global head of sales at Tauk. We'll be right back and optimized SEO. Then you have to check out our friends at Propeleccom. They are the leading digital agency for growth in travel and tourism. Propelec offers bold digital marketing strategies to ensure your travel company's success. They have a remarkable methodology that has actually been implemented by TravelAIcom, and they are a leading SEO agency globally and offer a range of resources a podcast of their own, a blog on their website, propelliccom. That's P-R-O-P-E-L-L-I-Ccom. And don't forget to mention Travel Trends for your free marketing audit.
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Speaker 2:And when you look at the next two guests after talk who operate in river and multi-day tour, we're going to speak to Avalon, part of the Globus family of brands, and of course we heard from them in the first episode of our multi-day tour series. And then we're going to speak to Scenic, and Scenic operates in ocean and river and tours, and Scenic actually joined us in season four of our podcast for our ocean cruise sector and this is where we kind of bring it all together by doing multi-day and now river. And if we take a broader look at what's happening in the industry, you'll see companies like Trafalgar Tours, who I worked closely with for many years, they have just recently expanded into river cruising. And if you look at companies like Viking, who created this whole category of river cruise that we highlighted in the opening episode with Ragnar, they are also expanding into land-based offerings as well. So it's clear that customers love both styles of travel multi-day tours and river cruises and many of them are combining a week on a coach and a week on a ship as part of their holidays, and this trend will obviously continue.
Speaker 2:Now, before we bring Steve into the conversation, I just want to remind everyone that we do post clips and highlights on all our social channels, which are LinkedIn, instagram and YouTube, at Travel Trends Podcast, and we send out a monthly newsletter to highlight the latest episodes and our travel plans for the upcoming month, which you can register at TravelTrendsPodcastcom for.
Speaker 2:And in our next newsletter we're going to be running a survey and a contest as we look to learn more information about our listeners to prepare for season six, which will start in September, and the partners that we look to bring on board to make sure that we have the most compelling content.
Speaker 2:So make sure that you do sign up for the newsletter and fill out that survey when you see it in the next edition. And then, lastly, I just wanted to highlight that we are back from the Aviation Festival Americas in Miami last week and we will have a special spotlight episode launching very shortly, as well as one from the Educational Travel Consortium in Mobile. And next week I'm going to be in Denver at the Adventure Travel and Trade Association recording podcasts live from their events. So be sure to reach out if you're going to be there and we can find time to record together. And then the week of June 9th I'm going to be in Barcelona with the team at Focusrite for my very first European conference with them. Now let's get on to episode two of our River Cruise series and bring the VP of Global Sales, steve Spivak, from Tauk, in to join us. Welcome, steve. Thanks so much for joining us on Travel Trends.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to be with you today. I'm in Wilton, connecticut, at Tauk World Headquarters. In this beautiful part of the world, the sun is finally shining and it's warming up and our guests are starting to travel the world again and we're excited for a wonderful season of welcoming guests all around the world. And this, our 100th anniversary year. It's going to be our best year ever.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's incredible. I mean, that's remarkable and the 100 year anniversary. Clearly, for those of our listeners that are going to be able to watch a few clips from this, it looks beautiful where you are and that was the first thing I said to Steve. I'm like, where are you? I could tell you're at the office, but it's a beautiful, stunning background you were highlighting. There's wildlife that runs through the background at various times, so it looks like a stunning place to be able to work, very inspiring and clearly very connected with nature. How long has Tauk been there? And tell us, by context of that, a little bit of background on Tauk itself and how you guys came to be based there.
Speaker 1:Sure. So we have been in this building since 2017. Tauk has been in Connecticut for wow just decades now. Been in Connecticut for wow just decades now. And we're in this building and you can see the beautiful environment behind you, because what we sell is the beauty of the world and what we sell is the idea of connecting with the environment around us, and so for us to fulfill that for our guests, it's important for us to be in that environment as well and connected with nature. And we have built this business in Connecticut because the Tauch family has lived in Connecticut for many years. Even when the majority of our tours were starting from the Waldorf Astoria in New York City, the Tauch family was living here in Connecticut and really built this into one of Connecticut's most successful employers. It's a true success story for the state and we're proud of our home and what we do in the community. But Connecticut, because of the proximity to New York City, was a just a great destination to establish the company.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's really important context because I want to understand your background and the background on talc itself. I think people certainly got a good idea from that introduction about you know your background, which is obviously quite impressive. I mean, starting in hotels, you've always been on the travel, uh, the travel industry, and you spent the last 12 years at Talc, and so tell us a little bit, first how you got into this space and what kind of drew you to travel, and then I want to dive a little further into Talc itself and a bit more of that background and what led you to join this company and, obviously, how it's evolved and shaped. But yeah, tell us a little bit about your background, stephen, travel and what brought you to Talc.
Speaker 1:Sure.
Speaker 1:So I went from the restaurant business to the hotel industry and thought I would spend my entire career in the hotel industry.
Speaker 1:I was opening new hotels and leading sales organizations for large hotel companies, and I started to get the sense that the hotel business was about revenue management and putting heads in beds, and I, personally, it was important to me to do something that had more of a connection to purpose, and so, when I had the opportunity to join Tauk, I was so compelled at the opportunity to give our guests the chance to live a more joyful, fulfilling life, and that's what we do every day.
Speaker 1:Every day, on over 150 different itineraries on seven continents, we're helping people live their best life, and whether it's celebrating a milestone anniversary or a birthday or connecting with family through travel, what we do really matters to people, and so, personally, I can't think of a more fulfilling career, and so I have truly enjoyed every minute of being with Tauk, because I think everything we do really connects to that purpose and our values connect to that purpose, and really, when we think about our governing principles, it is always about taking care of the guests, doing what's right by the guests and helping them to have the most fulfillment and enjoyment of their experiences with us around the world.
Speaker 2:Well, it's really interesting and it certainly starts with the people inside the organization and clearly you're an example of that when you think of a company that has been around for 100 years, like talc, and you certainly you know I was there for the 100th anniversary of the travel corporation. Unfortunately was during COVID, so the party was a little bit delayed, but nevertheless there's these incredible companies that have that legacy, and one of the things that always stands out to me is just how long tenured many of the people are within the business and clearly that is been a big asset, because it's all about people, as you know, and the fact that someone like yourself has been there 12 years. When we were interviewing Steve from Globus, he's been there 24 years and many people I'm sure you come across as some people say, oh, 12 years. You know you're one of the recent joiners, because so many people have been in these companies for 20 plus years, right, and it's like, but that's a really good sign, a really encouraging sign for guided tours and river cruising.
Speaker 2:You guys operate in both. I know we're talking about river cruises in this series, but you guys are obviously in both places and so let's give our audience that backstory on Tauk itself, because 100 years. A lot has happened in that time. How best would you summarize that for us? I know you've already given us, you know you've been in Connecticut, but take us a little bit through the product journey, like what the last 100 years has looked like, to bring you up to 2025.
Speaker 1:Sure, the story starts, like many American dream stories, right. A young man had the idea to share places that were special to him with others and he thought this could be a business. And that young man was Arthur Tauch. And in 1925, he set out on the back roads of New England with his first tour of six guests in a rented Studebaker, and he went to places that he had visited as a traveling salesman. And in those places he saw stunning scenery and he was welcomed into inns and lodges where the innkeepers knew his name and knew what was important to him. He dined at restaurants where it felt like home but better, and he believed that if he offered people that experience as his guests, that they would be changed, that they would find enjoyment in that. And so was born Talc Tours. And over the years it expanded into other tours of New England, then other tours of the US and a large presence in the national parks, and then Hawaii and Canada and Mexico, and it became, after being granted tour operator license, number one. It became a sort of tradition of families to travel with talc, generation after generation.
Speaker 1:Seemingly a long time after that first tour in 1925, we finally ventured into Europe because our guests said we want to go with you, but you don't go to Europe. And so we finally ventured into Europe. And then our global destinations Africa, south America and Central America. Our global destinations Africa, south America and Central America, australia, new Zealand, asia. And the one thing that has always been true to Tauk is no matter where we go, we go with the same set of values. We go with the same sort of governing principles of how we should deliver an exceptional experience to our guests. And you know, back in 1925, you know, arthur in an ad placed in a newspaper in New Jersey, where that first tour operated, from Newark, new Jersey, and what he said was all I want is a congenial party 10 minutes after leaving Newark. We shall be one happy party Along for a great time. I want no grouches and no pessimists, and still to this day, I mean, that's what we are. No-transcript.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting to get your perspective on this because you know we'll segue into river cruise in a moment. But I wanted all of our listeners to get a full understanding of the Tauk backstory, because there is this commonality between guided touring and then river cruising. Because, as some of our listeners learned, or many of our listeners are in the b2b travel trade space, they know that globus owns avalon travel corporation, of course, has uniworld. Apt is a company that does both you know, guided tours and river, and there seems to be such a crossover with river tours. I mean grand circle and some of these companies that obviously you're very familiar with as well that offered guided touring and then got into river cruising.
Speaker 2:But the point that you made there is so important, which is that there has to be a commonality between the operational excellence and the commitment to the guest experience that crosses over, which is why you can then execute these amazing travel experiences in another category, because you're used to the art of hospitality and, given your background in hotels, right, it's like. And river cruises, as you'll probably be the first one to say, are really floating hotels in many ways. But tell us, steve, how Tauk decided to get into River Cruise. What was that moment and that breakthrough and how did that transform the company? Once you decided to do tours and cruises compared to ocean cruising.
Speaker 1:Right, the time spent in the destination is the true difference. You know, when you're on a river cruise ship, you wake up in the heart of the destination every single day and you walk off the ship and it's all there for you, versus spending a few hours in a port and then spending most of your time at sea. And so what we think of when we think of river cruising is it's truly a destination experience, it's a land journey enjoyed from the comfort of a river cruise ship, the comfort of a river cruise ship. And the river cruise ship is really your venue for accommodation, for dining some of the time, because much of our dining is off ship and it's sort of your floating five-star hotel. But where the magic really happens and the reason it's so appealing is because you are in the heart of Europe's great cities. Appealing is because you are in the heart of Europe's great cities every single day and for us, so much of the evolution and innovation in this company comes from listening to our guests. The most important thing we can do is listen to our guests and listen to our travel advisor partners, who represent our guests, and what they want, and so, as we see an opportunity to deliver the talc experience in a different way that is appealing to our customers. That's when we start to dip our toe into new and different ways of traveling and that you know that, combined with always looking to be pioneers, is how we got into river cruising.
Speaker 1:You know, tauk was really dipping our toe into river cruising back in the early 90s, right when we started operating in Europe. Because of the great partnerships we have through connections and friendships and partnerships, we started operating European river cruises as a very early days part of our European offering. And then, in the mid 2000s, around 2006, when river cruising really started to expand and explode, that's when our customers really started to say our guests really started to say this is a way we want to experience Europe and the comfort of this ship and wake up in a new place every day, without the extensive motor coaching, with a more immersive way to experience the heart of Europe. And so that's when we started to build our own ships with our partners and to really expand river cruising, and it was so. It's unique to Talc to be able to do this in a way that was consistent with what we were doing on land, because, unlike some of the other companies you mentioned.
Speaker 1:We think of ourselves as a branded house instead of a house of brands Meaning those other companies. Yes, they do offer river cruising and land, but they are distinct, almost distinct operating companies cruising and land, but they are distinct, almost distinct operating companies. Whereas Tauk River, tauk Land, tauk Small Ship Cruising, it's the same branded experience that carries throughout the same product design philosophy, the same set of core values, the same commitment to exclusive experiences, the same level of quality and, most importantly, it's for the same customer. When we think about our customer base, our loyal guests, we're not looking for a new customer for river than we are for land, than we are for small ship. We know that once customers, once our guests, experience talc, they'll travel with us, no matter what the vessel is, no matter what the venue is, because they know that there's going to be consistency in how we deliver the experience and that's how we've become so successful in river cruising.
Speaker 2:Well, that integration is certainly clear to me from the outside. Looking in. Well, that integration is certainly clear to me from the outside. Looking in, it's one ofday tour competitors. But we certainly see in consumer behavior and you guys were clearly onto this early is that people want to take a river cruise for a week and then they want to take a guided tour, and they're two great ways to travel, to get into the heart of a destination. As you know, when you pointed out about river cruising, it was certainly, you know, one of the things that was highlighted to me multiple times before I had my first river cruise is that you're going to travel through the heart of Europe and you're going to be getting off and literally walking into the towns where history has unfolded and there's, you know, beautiful scenery and it's just. It's a very different way to travel, especially when you can sit on top of a river cruise ship and see castles and it's a truly magical experience If anyone hasn't done river cruising before. That's one of the big reasons we're diving into this topic. Whether you're a traveler looking to book a trip or a travel agent looking to better educate yourself on the brands so that you can better service your clients. We'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show, the one other thing I was going to also highlight, steve, that I was preparing for our conversation and getting some of the background that I wasn't familiar with. I was actually watching the Ken Burns video of Tauk and the 100-year history and that is so moving. I mean, I love Ken Burns as a documentary filmmaker but for those of you listening to this who just want to learn more about Tauk, watch that video because it does go back to like the motor coach days and some of those early images and what's it. What I find fascinating about that is kind of what's what's old is new again in many ways with how you treat people and how you know the the duty of care to take someone on a motor coach trip or on a river cruise.
Speaker 1:And if you think of some of those, some of those early days, when you think about and this goes a little bit back to the importance of family that consistent thread that runs through every decade of talc, carry on, no matter what the challenge, no matter what the opportunity, whether it was the Great Depression in the 1930s or World War II, when we paused for years for the war effort, or post 9-11, when some said, well, travel will never be the same again.
Speaker 1:What has carried this, this company, through is that desire to carry the legacy forward, but that that also that desire to always be better and better still. And when you think of how travel changed over the years and those pioneering moments for talc, you know the first company to ever charter an aircraft for leisure travel in the 1950s was Tauk and something like that. At that time most of the traveling public had never been on an airplane. It was something in the 1950s that was scary to some and just foreign to others and a luxurious opportunity for some. But we saw the opportunity and we moved forward in that innovating way. And that's very similar to what motivates and inspires us today it's the family believing in the purpose of what we do and carrying the legacy forward with this, you know, incredible group of highly committed, purpose-driven leaders, my colleagues and all of our employees among us, and we continue to strive to do more and better today than we did yesterday for our guests, because the family and being connected to that family is so important.
Speaker 2:Well, and let's get into some of those specifics as it relates to River Cruise, because when you're a family-owned business, you can make decisions around investment and profitability, and especially when it comes to purchasing new ships, which is a large capital expense, and then maintaining these ships. So if I've done my research properly, steve, my understanding is the fleet of Tauk ships for River Cruise currently stands at 11. Is that right?
Speaker 1:So our fleet currently stands at nine and two more brand new vessels which will be christened in 2026. And we are incredibly excited for our new ships coming on board. Both will be in France. We have the Lumiere and Serene. Serene will be on Serene, I think, is the proper way. You're closer to a French speaking place than I am, to a French speaking place than I am. So, um and uh, one will be on the on the uh San and one will be on the Roan Um. So next year, uh, yes, 11, 11 ships.
Speaker 1:And we are in growth mode. You know this category. Um has seen such an incredible recovery post COVID, um, and we are in such a position of strength that the biggest challenge we've faced is capacity. Our loyal guests have done such a wonderful job of securing space on Talc River cruises that new people who want to travel with us often find it challenging to find the dates and cabins on the cruises they want. So we are growing and we expect, beyond 26, even more growth, and we're so excited.
Speaker 1:But you know, growth for us, again, as a family business, a lot of people say well, you know what's the secret to success. Well, again, it's being true to our roots and committed to our values, serving our guests and building loyalty but it's also being very smart with how we assess risk and how we grow risk and how we grow. And if you think about the growth in the category, there are some companies that are adding 10 ships a year and that is a strategy that encumbers those companies with a significant amount of debt and a significant amount of risk of debt and a significant amount of risk For us. We have a saying that small is big. We want to serve fewer people in a bigger way. We want to serve fewer people in a way that is more service-oriented, that is more immersive, that is more connected and more personal, and so growing in a way that is measured. Growing in a way that is more connected and more personal, and so growing in a way that is measured.
Speaker 1:Growing in a way that is responsible and thinking with a long-term view of when might there be another downturn. And you never want to be in a position where you're so encumbered with debt or so encumbered with assets that you risk the entire business to do that. And there have been companies, you know there have been companies like Thomas Cook, for example, that were around for hundreds of years. I think they were probably around for 100 years before talc.
Speaker 1:But risk and taking on too much risk is potentially a recipe for disaster. So that's one of the things that has always been. That very conservative orientation. Asset light has allowed talc to focus on the guest experience, not focus on how do we maintain or pay for depreciating assets. And when you think about river cruising in particular, there are no more family companies in river cruising other than talc, and being a family-owned business allows us to make decisions about doing the right thing versus doing the thing that satisfies the investors or satisfies the bank and that makes us feel good and I think it makes our guests and partners feel good makes us feel good and I think it makes our guests and partners feel good.
Speaker 2:Well, it's interesting when I asked about the number of ships you have and one of the things you're pointing out there is like the strength of a family business to be able to invest in these ships and maintain them, and certainly there are companies that charter ships. That's certainly one way for companies to get into this space, because they have the audience, but they don't necessarily have the product offering. So they partner with companies, and the one thing that's very challenging for consumers to understand, having spent some time in this space as well, is when it comes to river cruises, they all look very similar from the outside because they have to meet the exact specs for Europe. So you're kind of looking at something that you think from the outside is the same, but the reality is, as you well know, it's the interior of these ships, the service, the experience and trying to bring that to life for a customer so they can understand the difference between Tauk and your competitors. And so I do have a couple of interesting conversations over the next couple of weeks to really help our listeners understand the world of river cruising, and I thought one of the things that we could do to help bring everyone along on the journey is given the European focus of river cruising.
Speaker 2:Clearly it's a global phenomenon now and a lot of companies operate in different markets and in many cases that's where they end up chartering ships. But Europe is obviously the core market for river cruising, for a good reason because the rivers are exceptional, the history is there, the food, the cuisine, like. There's so many reasons why you know, if you're doing your first river cruise, go to Europe. But tell us, if you wouldn't mind, give us a brief overview of the rivers and the ships, because, again, I know from experience that trying to figure out which are the key rivers for people to consider traveling and then which ship do you decide to put on that particular passageway, because oftentimes you're trying to design the ships and the decor and, of course, the food to match the experience that they're having. So just give everyone, if you wouldn't mind, an overview of the European rivers and then the ships and how Tauch tries to match that for your guests.
Speaker 1:Sure, so we operate on all of what you would consider the major rivers of Europe. So the Douro, the Seine, the Rhône, the Rhine, the Danube, danube, the Moselle. We operate on all of those rivers and really you touched on this before what dictates what size vessel is really the river itself. So on the Douro, for example, we have a ship that's under 300 feet long that carries a maximum of 84 passengers. On the Seine and the Rhône, our new ships will carry a maximum of 130 passengers on the Rhône and 100 on the Seine, 125 on the Seine and then on the Danube and the Rhine. That's where you have your long ships which are about 443 feet long. On those ships, Tauk would carry a maximum of 130 passengers. Other river cruise lines would carry up to 190. So the type of ship, really the size of ship that sails on each of the major rivers of Europe, is really dictated by the locks and also the navigational nature, the geography of the river itself. Are there winding sort of bends and winds in the river that limit the length of the ship, and so, within that same ship size, it's just a matter of what various companies choose to do with the real estate. For us, again, small is big, so we choose to have fewer people in bigger cabins. Small is big, so we choose to have fewer people in bigger cabins. 80 plus percent of our cabins are larger than 225 square feet, and on our long ships, our 443 foot ships, we have 22 cabins that are 300 square feet. And so our guests want bigger cabins. Right, because to them that is a more luxurious experience. By having larger cabins and fewer cabins, that translates to the experience in other areas of the ship in the public spaces, fewer people are in a lounge, and so on our ships they can all sit comfortably with who they want to sit with. When it's time for a evening lecture or a cocktail reception, they're not waiting around for service. Right, the waiters are providing wonderful service to them at their tables, there's not a wait at the bar, and it's just a more luxurious, intimate, club-like atmosphere than on ships that carry more people. And what's really important is when you get off the ship and you're in these charming little villages. When you get off the ship with 84 people, it's a lot different than when you get off the ship with 160 people, and it doesn't change the nature of the destination there's been so much conversation about over tourism and sustainability and the impact of tourism on the destination and the people who live there, our guests, because they arrive in small groups and split into even smaller groups. They just blend into the scenery and that allows them to have a much more authentic experience when we travel and some other things that are so important.
Speaker 1:About the differences in river cruising you say you know all river cruise lines just say the same things, and you mentioned that they all sort of sound alike. Well, many of them say they're all inclusive. Right, and that's a term that listeners will hear or see from almost all the river cruise lines is we're all inclusive, and that word all all to me is not a subjective term. Right, all means everything.
Speaker 1:But on almost every river cruise line other than Talc, there's optional excursions being sold. There's a cocktail hour, but outside that cocktail hour you're paying for your beverages, there's gratuities that are not included, there's port charges, there's transfers. So all-inclusive is a lot more subjective a term than it really should be. With talc, everything is included, anything you want from the bar, bottles of wine at dinner from the wine cellar, every gratuity, all of the excursions and the best of everything. And so it's really important to understand when you're choosing a river cruise line. How many people are on that ship? The ships are the same size. How many people does that river cruise line carry on that river? And when they say all included, what is included in their definition of all inclusive?
Speaker 2:We've hit on a number of really valuable points. Points and one I just wanted to dive a little further on is the passenger to staff ratio that some people look at as well. So that, if you wouldn't mind just giving everyone a bit over, you mentioned some of the numbers of guests, but when you think about a river cruise ship, what is typically? And obviously we have nine of them, two more coming online, but what is the range of the number of guests and how does that compare to the number of staff that are on board?
Speaker 1:Sure you could have again. Tauk carries the fewest passengers of any river cruise line on our ships. So you know we can have a ship on the Douro, that's a maximum of 84 passengers. A ship on the Rhine or the or the Seine sorry the Rhone or the Seine, sorry the Rhône or the Seine that's 98 passengers maximum. And even our largest ships on the Rhine or Danube are 130 passengers.
Speaker 1:What you will always have with Tauk and this is one of our philosophies is travel in good company. And this goes back to that first tour where Arthur said you will be properly chaperoned. On a talc ship you have four director level staff. On most other cruise lines you have one cruise director and that cruise director, their role they typically are the person in the lobby sitting behind the desk and their role is to make sure all the transfers are arranged for guests, make sure the coaches are arriving for the daily touring, make sure the local guides are there. That cruise director is really making sure all of the details are attended to so that the cruise goes on as it should and the off-ship experience goes on as it should. With Tauk you do have that cruise director right, very important person for logistics, but you also have three Tauk directors, have three talc directors and those are employees of the company and their role is to deliver the experience both on the ship and off the experience off the ship, the. They guide every one of our tours off the ship so all of the excursions have a talc director accompanying them. That talc director is supported and supplemented by very knowledgeable local guides in each destination, but they get off the ship with every one of our excursions. That allows us to offer choice of excursion every single day and that's included choice, not optional choice.
Speaker 1:And what's also very, very different is when the guests come back on the ship. Those talc directors, those three additional director level staff, are there to deliver content, are there to continue the learning and the conversation and the engagement with our guests. Cruise lines where it's only the cruise director, the guests are turned over to local guides only every day and those local guides they never see again. And so what's happening is the experience is not as seamless, the experience is not as consistent. And when you think about again, another consistent among our guests is they are knowledge seekers, they are curious people. So having those tour directors, those talk directors, there for the journey really makes it special for them and that's a true difference. It's not the overall guest to staff ratio, because guest to staff ratio doesn't really matter how many dishwashers are in the kitchen for the guest experience. So guest to staff ratio as an overall number is not as important as director level staff to guest ratio.
Speaker 1:And with Tauk it's four director level staff with almost every other river cruise line. It's one director level staff with almost every other river cruise line. It's one for all those passengers. And when you think about properly chaperoned, that is properly chaperoned. And again it goes back to Arthur in 1925 and his belief that guests should be cared for by a member of quote the family. And you know when you think about our guests and what they're experiencing on tour with Talc. Another thing that sets Talc apart is this idea of beyond ordinary travel, beyond ordinary and being exceptional. And you know whether that's in Paris when we offer a private after hours visit to the Louvre, or if it's the private visit after hours to the Sistine Chapel when we do our land programs in Italy. The idea of exceptional experiences permeate throughout. But what our guests say when they come back from a talk tour is as great as the experiences were, as great as the meals and our fellow guests. The thing I'll remember the most is our talk director.
Speaker 2:They made the journey truly exceptional. Well, what you're highlighting to me is something that I certainly came to understand under the mentorship of Stanley Tolman and Brett as well under the mentorship of Stanley Tolman and Brett as well, but, of course, knowing the Tolman family. They bought businesses, oftentimes in distress, and they fixed them and restored them to glory, and I think that was certainly one of the key characteristics of their success over their 100 years history. Obviously, that the group was sold recently to a private equity firm, but when you look at their strategy, there's something akin there, which is the fact that you really know how to sell the difference and that was something that Stanley always highlighted to me and others in various meetings and to really know what you stood for and to make it clear to a customer why they should choose your brand, and you guys do a great job of that. You were already highlighting a number of points. You're actually headed exactly the direction.
Speaker 2:I wanted to be able to draw out some of those key elements. That are you know, why talk over your competition? You have a why talk section of your website, which, first of all, you know that's exactly where I think brands need to be today, because that's what customers are looking for. It's like, why should I choose you? And then, underneath that, you've got the talk difference. You've got things about sustainability and the family history and all of those things that people need to see and understand, to want to do business with you, to travel with you.
Speaker 2:You've mentioned a number of them and the one that actually stood out to me when you mentioned all-inclusive, because that's a great example of where there's different interpretations of all-inclusive. And even when you say all-inclusive beer and wine and spirits, it's like but is it premium spirits or is it just regular kind of bar rail spirits and people, when you spend a lot of money on a river cruise, you want to make sure that you're going to have the type of liquor that you like to drink, and that's just one of those examples of like where you have to try and find a way to please everybody. So, if you wouldn't mind, kind of hit us with the list. I know you've already mentioned a few, but, like when you are being pressed on the talc difference and what makes river cruising unique with talc, what are the things that you always point to? And again, you've nailed a couple of them already, but I want to make sure that I put them all on the table.
Speaker 1:Sure, and one thing I do want to say about competition, especially in the river cruise space, is there is a that everyone who operates in this category is doing their part to build up what river cruising stands for, and every single one of the operators in this space, I can truly say, is good at what they do. So when I point out the difference between Tauk and these other operators, I do so knowing that I'm helping people find what's right for them, based on their expectations and what's important to their experience, and for Tauk it is. Do you want to travel with fewer people and more personalized attention to your needs? Is having more space? You know we think of it as like a club-like atmosphere? Is having more personal space and the ability to dine when you want with who you want important to you? And the ability to dine when you want with who you want? Important to you? Is having everything included important to you as a potential river cruiser. You know things like beverages, right? Some people say you know what, I'm not going to take advantage of that, it's not important to me, so having that included is not something that's important.
Speaker 1:Some people, when they walk into our lounge and they see the waitstaff pouring Veuve Clicquot. They go okay, this is my scene, right, this is my kind of party and to me party and to me. And when they go off the ship and they dine in a private castle or a palace, like we do in Vienna, at one of the few privately owned palaces, when we take our guests into Palae Pallavicini in Vienna and they see that experience To them that communicates luxury, that communicates exclusivity, exclusive access, that's important to them. So it's the importance of space, the importance of choice, the importance of things being included, it's the access to the destinations. We like to say that when talc arrives, the velvet rope gets lifted up and talc guests are welcomed in.
Speaker 1:And often guests from other ships will see that and they'll say well, how come we don't have that experience? Because that's the Tauk difference. So it's those things, it's more space, it's choice, it's the truly all-inclusive experience, it's the quality of the inclusions and, above all else, it's the people. It's those Tauk directors, those employees of the company who are guiding every single journey, who are there for the entire time. It's the fellow travelers who are there because they have a shared sense of purpose and joy that comes with travel. They are like-minded travelers and it's our partners around the world who step up, because of our history with them, because of the connection that we've built over many years and because of their shared philosophy. It is all those things that sort of happen in the Tauk universe that make Tauk different.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. I want to keep on the topic of the river cruise industry and where it's headed, because clearly you mentioned that you're seeing fantastic growth and that's obviously why you're adding two more ships. Let's talk about that, because I think one of the things that I wanted all of our listeners to wrap their head around is like how significant an opportunity is River Cruise. So like looking at, you know, the overall volume and travel opportunity that's there today and then how you see that growing in the next five years. Obviously, we're having this conversation, you know, in mid 2025 and, as someone highlighted to me, you know, for this year, I mean, you're probably 80 or 90% sold and most people are planning for 2026 or even 2027 at this point. So tell us your views, steve, on like the state of the river cruise industry and what are some of the growth opportunities that you're seeing in this category.
Speaker 1:The industry is as strong as it's ever been. Again, we are fully recovered. And then some from the COVID. The bounce back was incredibly strong and the industry is growing. A few weeks ago, asta had its, I believe, its third annual river cruise expo in Vienna, or maybe it was the fourth. I think it was the fourth, actually Fourth annual river cruise expo in Vienna, and it sold out in a matter of hours 1,600 travel advisors, 17 ships and 2026 is already sold out.
Speaker 1:So among advisors representing, I think, which are a good representation of the demand from their clients, this segment is at its peak and continuing to grow. And there are still so many millions of luxury ocean cruise travelers, fit land travelers, guided group travelers who have yet to experience their first river cruise. So we are well positioned for a history, a future of rapid growth, and I think the only limit to that growth is how the industry approaches growth. There are a finite number of people that can be in Avignon, france, on a given day without changing Avignon, france, and so we have to manage it effectively, and one of the ways that a company like Talc approaches that is by offering different destinations as part of our river cruising itineraries than what everyone else is doing so. For example, we have a cruise itinerary that's called Rhine Enchantment. It starts in Milan, italy, and so we do three nights in Milan, explore that great city, explore the lakes region of Italy, travel through the Swiss Alps by rail and then board our river cruise ship. So the future is incredibly strong, but we have to be mindful of how we grow and that we grow smartly, and we've seen this around the world in destinations like Venice and Amsterdam and where they're starting to push back a little bit. So growth can't be unlimited, but if we do it smartly and we do it in a sustainable, mindful way, the potential is unlimited.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm going to ask you a few rapid fire questions now, and the reason I do that, steve, is because on our last episode, we have a lot of great listeners to our podcast. I love people text me or email me and they're always like you didn't answer this question. It was a collect last month. They were like you should have asked more questions about technology, and I love that. People are that invested and engaged, and so, even as I prepared for our conversation today, I was like I've got a lot of questions I want to get in and I know our listeners are going to be interested, and I realized because I'm super fascinated by this space and so here I'm going to run through a few of them and then so one of the things that always comes up is that people are always trying to figure out who they're going to be on a trip with. You started mentioning at the beginning about the fact that you don't have people that are pessimistic or grumpy, and I'm like that.
Speaker 1:No grouches and no pessimism.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that. I absolutely love that, because that's what people are afraid of. One person can ruin a group trip if they're like they bring everybody down, and I know guides have a way to manage that and deal with that. I've seen that and it's like you know. So it's a very low risk, but it's an important one. So the first one I wanted to ask you is that what is a typical talk customer? So where are they from? What's their? You know their demographic, so that our listeners can kind of imagine themselves on a ship. So who is a primary customer for Talc?
Speaker 1:Our primary guests are 55 plus, affluent retirees who are lifelong learners. They're culturally curious, they're explorers and to them having a more immersive and exclusive experience in the destination is of the utmost importance and they want it all done for them. They want the best of everything and they want it done for them. They also want some free time to explore destinations, and that's also important. But I think the thing that is most true about who our guests travel with and it's that idea of a congenial party, because they're all there with the same set of expectations, the same level of trust in talc, the same belief that travel enhances and changes people's lives. It doesn't matter so much where they come from.
Speaker 1:And you know, in this day and age of sort of divisive politics, you know, I can tell you of sort of divisive politics. You know, I can tell you geographically, we have a huge number of people that come from Florida, a huge number of people who come from New York, a big, huge number of people that come from Texas and Southern California and the Midwest, and they all come as very different people, right, but they share a purpose for why they're there. So they leave the differences at home and they come together around their sameness thing I see when I'm with our guests is that they are all truly delighted by the destination and the experience and each other, and they don't have conversations around who do you vote for? Another thing they don't have conversations around when they travel with Tauk is how much did you pay? Because everyone who's traveling with Tauk, no matter how they booked, no matter who they booked with, they have all paid the same price. It's one upfront price, no discounts, no deals, and so it allows people to really coalesce around the joy of travel and the experience they're having.
Speaker 1:And so it's everything from retired CEOs to retired teachers to people who are experiencing the world with their families in our on our bridges program. But I think, I think again, it's that it's the why they're there versus where they're from. You know what their background is. That that makes you know for cow travelers unique.
Speaker 2:And then the other thing you mentioned is price. So what's a typical price range? What are we talking about? What price range are we looking at? For what number of days approximately? Again, just to give our listeners a reference point.
Speaker 1:So it could be anywhere from $5,000 for a eight-day Holland and Belgium in the spring. For example, we have an entire category of cabins, our Category 1 cabins, where there is never a single supplement. So for our solo travelers that's a great opportunity to travel with talc and not pay a single supplement and not pay a single supplement. And then the price for a 14-night journey in a Category 7, which is our 300, or Category 5 on the Douro, which is 300 square feet, that could be up to $12,000 per person. It really varies based on the itinerary and the cabin category. But when you think about price, we don't want to ignore value. And the thing is, when you look at the cost of traveling with Tauk, it may often look higher if you're just looking at the upfront cost, but when you look at all of the things that are included, which is everything when you travel on a Talc river cruise, it really is very comparable to any other river cruise line and often comes out to less money but way more value than other cruise lines.
Speaker 2:And then the other one is B2C and B2B. You mentioned about growth and you also mentioned about depending on what channel they came in through. So how does the business look today between B2B and B2C? Where are you seeing growth? Are you seeing growth on both sides, and how are you achieving that growth with both B2B and B2C?
Speaker 1:Absolutely. We're seeing growth on both sides. I can tell you my preference is always that our guests book with a travel advisor. A travel advisor is the guest's trusted advocate and partner in not just choosing talc but in choosing a lifetime of fulfilling journeys. And we know that an educated and trusted advisor will guide our guests to talk when that's the right way for them to enjoy the experience, but when it's not, they will also match them with what is the right experience.
Speaker 1:The internet will sell people whatever they want, right. So we, you know what we don't want people is is for people to be out there shopping online and not having that resource. So, travel advisor, we always recommend that somebody think about it like their financial advisor build a relationship over time with someone that can help you get the most out of your hard-earned investment in travel. We do offer B2C, we do support direct bookings through our call center and we are certainly happy to take those bookings when the phone rings. We've been taking direct bookings since 1925. But again, my preference is for people to build that relationship with a travel advisor who will always be there to guide them in the right direction, no matter what their choice of journeys.
Speaker 2:And then the other one I want to ask you too is I've got two more for you and then I'm keen to make sure everyone can find out more information on how to connect with you and to learn more about TAO. But clearly, since you have such a great deal of experience and expertise, one of the things I was keen to know from your vantage point is if you were to pick one of the biggest trends in river cruising to highlight to our audience as far as what's coming or what to expect, what would that be? Would it be about technology? Would it be about the product experience? What would be one of the biggest trends that you're seeing and paying attention to in river cruising?
Speaker 1:It's not technology.
Speaker 1:These are the most human experiences, and, while technology can certainly supplement or complement the experiences, I think human connections are always going to be the driver of the river cruising experience, and I think it should be.
Speaker 1:I think, you know, making those connections and and abandoning technology, uh, disconnecting for a little bit is what really allows us to fully enjoy the space. I think the biggest trend and and again this is this is from through my talc lens, um, but also through through what I hear from advisors is this desire to connect more authentically with the destination, to have more exclusive and immersive experiences, to do more in a hands-on way that really connects you with the people in the place, not just the place. That's such a huge thing, and I think that's somewhat connected to what we think of as luxury. Luxury is not just the thread count anymore. It's not just serving Vuv in your lounge and at your bar. In your lounge and at your bar, Luxury is access to things that no one else can provide you access to, and it's doing so in a personal and caring way, and that trend really plays very much into our strengths.
Speaker 2:That's great. And then one last one since you've got such a great deal of experience, our listeners are often very curious to know what advice you might give them if they're trying to get into the river cruise industry. So, given the success you've had, what would be one piece of advice you might share with someone else that is either looking to get into travel or, specifically, the river cruise industry and to be able to have a success in this space?
Speaker 1:Sure. So this is the same for any industry. I've had experience in um, the restaurant industry, the hotel industry, the river cruise industry is, if you want to get into the industry, to get into the industry start. And what I mean by that is you know, if it's the hotel industry, get that job at the front desk. You know, if it's the river cruise industry, you know, get that, get that position at the front desk on the river cruise ship. You know, as a sir, as a banquet server, as a, as a whatever it is, as a call center agent, you know, when we hire for our reservation sales counselors at, we don't hire for people with experience, we hire for people with empathy, we hire for people, um, who are, uh, who, who have that conveyed joy, um, in in the way they speak, who we know will connect with our guests and travel advisors. So, get that job, get into the industry For people who and this always came up in the hotel industry we'd have somebody who graduated from Cornell with a hospitality degree in management and they'd walk into your office and say, hey, I'm here to be a manager and you'd say, well, okay, tell me what other jobs you've had in a hotel.
Speaker 1:Oh, I haven't. I just graduated with a degree and until you have worked or served face-to-face with guests, you don't really have experience. So get experience in the industry. However, you can find a way into the industry and if it's for a travel advisor who wants to start building their river cruise business, go and experience the Asta River Cruise Expo. Go and experience a river cruise Travel advisors who want to grow their business.
Speaker 1:If they have a strong business plan, if they have a strong book of clients who maybe were luxury ocean cruisers or spent the last 10 years dropping 30 grand a year on Disney vacations, but now their kids are out of the house and they want to see the world. If a travel advisor has that sort of clientele and reaches out to me and says I really want to build my river cruise business, but I've never been on a river cruise, I'll send them on a river cruise so that they get that experience. Because once you've experienced it, once you've experienced it, you can share your experience from a very personal and real place with your clients. So, whether it's getting into the industry as an employee or building your business as travel advisor, is you got to start? You have to just do it.
Speaker 2:Great advice. And then final question, because clearly people are going to want to follow up with you, steve, and also learn more about Tauk. Where would you direct them to? Obviously, you've probably been checking out the website during our conversation, but, yeah, what would be the channels you'd point them to?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so definitely. Taukcom is the best place to go for people interested in a river cruise experience. For people interested in a river cruise experience. For travel advisors go to talccom and look for Advisor Connect, which is our travel advisor portal. You can register right there and have access to volumes of information. We have our sales guide for river cruising and our sales guide for land journeys as well. We have our online training, our TAUC specialist training program. There we have all of our brochures and we have wonderful video content. All of this is great for your education. It's also all shareable with your clients as customizable marketing, so it's a great way to show your clients that you're thinking about them and want to share river cruising as an opportunity for their enjoyment as well.
Speaker 2:That's great. Thank you, steve, and where are you off to next? What's your next river cruise on your agenda?
Speaker 1:My next river cruise with Tauk. Do I have a river cruise coming up the Douro? I will be sailing on the Ond the andarina um in november up on the doro um, and I may then be hopping over to both the rhone and the danube, so I'm going to have a very busy fall. In the meantime, uh, in june I'll be doing our talc small ship cruise to iceland, so I'm excited for that. So the road awaits.
Speaker 2:That's fantastic. Well, it's been a real pleasure speaking to you and getting to know you on this interview today. It was part of the special deep dive we've been doing at River Cruise. I know this added a lot to the conversation, so I really appreciate making the time. Obviously, it was great to learn about Tauk and I certainly wish you and the team every success over the course of this summer and I look forward to one day experiencing a Tauk and seeing you in person somewhere in the world. But thank you, steve, for joining us.
Speaker 1:I'll pack and bring you along with me. It's great to see you and thank you so much for the opportunity to have this wonderful conversation today.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on this latest episode of Travel Trends.
Speaker 2:I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Steve Spivak from Tauk, as we continued our deep dive into the world of river cruises brought to us in partnership with our friends over at Captio.
Speaker 2:That's K-A-P-T-I-O, and, as I mentioned at the beginning of this episode, tauk and Captio is what led Captio into the river cruise space, and we covered a number of really interesting details in our conversation today with Steve, and for more information, be sure to check out captiocom. That's K-A-P-T-I-Ocom. And don't forget, we do have clips and highlights on all our social channels, so be sure to check out YouTube, instagram and LinkedIn. And don't forget to subscribe to our newsletter for the latest round of updates, including our new contest and survey. And, finally, check out our events page, as we are on the road again in the next couple of weeks in Denver for ATTA, the Adventure Travel and Trade Association, and then shortly we'll be in Barcelona for Focusrite Europe, and we're going to be launching a series of event spotlights. So make sure that you are registered on the streaming platform of your choice to be notified when new episodes go live. Until next week, safe travels.
